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Log of Online Debate between Orthopodeo (James White) and KCC1TIM (Tim R.) from September 20, 1997

 

 

The "debate" began with a rather partisan prayer:

JPIPMPKP: Dear and precious Jesus, sweet and Blessed mother, we call upon you to listen to us.

PPascuzzi: Amen

Michl3282: AMen

TJ in MD: I live in PG county, JPIP

OS Matthew: amen

Sherimar: hear our prayers

Wallmell: Welcome Mr White...

JPIPMPKP: We gathr tonight after much preparation to debate Mr. James white over the papacy

JPIPMPKP: Dear mother as you speak so sweetly to Fr. Gobbi and the Mrian fathers you express to them

JPIPMPKP: and to all your true concern for our own pope John Paul II

JPIPMPKP: As all popes stand in place of your son, as His

JPIPMPKP: Vicars, they are infallible when they speak for the church and its doctrine

JPIPMPKP: WE ask tonight HUMBLY for part of this gift of infallibility

JPIPMPKP: Although Blessed Jesus, we are unworthy to beg for this gift, help us to use all TRUTH and W

JPIPMPKP: WISDOM when we speak and act for you.

JPIPMPKP: Let us not look toward success or failure, but instead as an opportunity to spread the faith

JPIPMPKP: Tonight win or loose , we humbly stand beneath your cross, with the blessed Mother

JPIPMPKP: and bleoved St. John.

JPIPMPKP: We draw strength from your broken and beaten back, we grasp at your peirced hands and feet,

JPIPMPKP: and we seek comfort in your wounded side.

JPIPMPKP: Lonely as the journey may be, we pick up our crosses and take our chances that we too may be

JPIPMPKP: be crucified for our knowledge of the TRUTH

JPIPMPKP: Bless us too with the gift of the Holy Spirit, because we know you are with us

JPIPMPKP: since we are 2 or more gathered in your name

JPIPMPKP: Bless and keep TIM throughout this debate, Send him the 12 apostles to surround him,

JPIPMPKP: and allow St Paul to enhance his reasoning that he may always speak for you on these topics

JPIPMPKP: Put his angel behind him, and allow his angel dear Jesus to comfort you with

JPIPMPKP: his words of yYour TRUTH

JPIPMPKP: Please add all other intentions at this time, and i will close
I include this prayer to demonstrate the bias of JPIPMPKP. This came up later in the debate.


CCFSTiger: I am a moderator and so is Jason

KCC1TIM: James, I am the home team, would you like to go first?

Orthopodeo: Actually, you are defending the thesis, hence, the person defending always

Orthopodeo: gets to go first.

CCFSTiger: The debate is the Papacy - Tim

KCC1TIM: Very well, thank you so much

KCC1TIM: First a dedication

KCC1TIM: I dedicate this Debate to Jesus in the Holy Eucharist and His

KCC1TIM: Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. I also ask Our Blessed Lord

KCC1TIM: Through the intecessions of Mary and the Saints and our Beloved

KCC1TIM: Mother Teresa of Calcutta to open the eys of our separated

KCC1TIM: Brethren and make this an invitation for them to come home.

KCC1TIM: It is my objective to point out the veracity of the Catholic Church,

KCC1TIM: the Church that was Founded by Jesus Christ, governed by His

KCC1TIM: Vicars, the Popes Through the Ages.

KCC1TIM: My opening Statment:

KCC1TIM: A very pleasant good evening Mr. White and my brothers and

KCC1TIM: Sisters in Christ! I am here to refute the false teachings and

KCC1TIM: erroneous interpretations of James White concerning the Papacy.

KCC1TIM: I firmly believe Mr. White, through no fault of his own, has been

KCC1TIM: lead to believe these fallacies. They are based upon a man-made

KCC1TIM: Johnny-come-lately doctrine stemming from 16th Century

KCC1TIM: anti-Christian scholastics.

KCC1TIM: I will prove that Jesus Christ, God, Himself Founded ONE Church,

KCC1TIM: the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is

KCC1TIM: mentioned in the Apostles Creed, as first formally and publicly

KCC1TIM: defined at the Council of Nicea in the year 325.

KCC1TIM: I will show you exactly in the Sacred Scripture where Jesus

KCC1TIM: appoints St. Peter to be his Vicar, the Pope. I will also show you

KCC1TIM: where the Promise of this office was made, and the guarantee

KCC1TIM: given by Christ Himself, for all eternity was made, that the gates

KCC1TIM: of hell shall not prevail against His Church; and by the way neither

KCC1TIM: will Mr. White. I will also share with you how this completes the

KCC1TIM: Prophesy made in Daniel chapter 2. I will also correct the

KCC1TIM: misrepresentations offered by the few anti-Catholic apologists,

KCC1TIM: including Mr. James White, who try to argue Greek grammar and

KCC1TIM: syntax to oppose the literal and fundamental reality of Christ’s

KCC1TIM: teaching for their own personal gain.

KCC1TIM: Jesus Christ founded a New Covenant in His Body and Blood

KCC1TIM: which replaced the Old Covenant of the Mosaic Sacrifice of the

KCC1TIM: Pentateuch. I will show you in Scripture where God is referred to

KCC1TIM: as Rock, as is Abraham, Jacob, and in the New Testament Peter;

KCC1TIM: all of which are acting as God’s personal representative or VICAR.

KCC1TIM: Many people like Mr. White can claim the power of revelation

KCC1TIM: through the Holy Spirit, but fewer have it. And as most of you are

KCC1TIM: well aware of, Christ predicted this would happen. [Mat 7:15;

KCC1TIM: 24:11]. Furthermore, Christ knew and predicted many would NOT

KCC1TIM: understand Sacred texts. He gave us a representative here on

KCC1TIM: earth who would interpret and arbitrate disputes until He comes

KCC1TIM: again. That is the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church

KCC1TIM: through her Bishops collegially under the arbitration of the

KCC1TIM: Principal Bishop, the Servant of the Servants of God, the Vicar of

Orthopodeo: EXCUSE ME. Please slow down your scrolling.

KCC1TIM: Christ, commonly referred to as the Pope.

KCC1TIM: Also I will refute the Johnny-come-lately and non-Biblical and

KCC1TIM: man-made allegations of Sola Scriptura, which have no doubt

KCC1TIM: confused many and have led millions astray. Even Martin Luther,

KCC1TIM: on his death bed, stated, "My God, what have I done, even

KCC1TIM: milk-maids think they can interpret Scripture."

KCC1TIM: I would also like to ask Mr. White why he claims the Power of the

KCC1TIM: Holy Spirit in interpreting Sacred Scripture and denies bitterly that

KCC1TIM: same power to the Vicar of Christ, the Pope. I would also like to

KCC1TIM: know why Mr. White challenges the ordination and Apostolic

KCC1TIM: succession of the Pope and at the same time asks us to accept

KCC1TIM: the validity of his, i.e. Mr. White’s ordination, (2 Corinthians

KCC1TIM: 11:13). And why does Mr. White think Jesus gave St. Peter the

KCC1TIM: Keys to the Kingdom of the Heavens {Matthew 16:18-19} and what

KCC1TIM: Scripture passage can he cite that gave him, i.e. Mr. White, the

KCC1TIM: Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven?

KCC1TIM: To put this simply, it seems either Jesus Christ is a liar, or Mr.

KCC1TIM: White is confused. When Jesus told Peter to feed His lambs and

KCC1TIM: later His Sheep, He had previously warned them, the Apostles,

KCC1TIM: about the ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing. The Catholic

KCC1TIM: Church was founded on a ROCK, I think Mr. White’s sect was

KCC1TIM: founded on sand, and the tide is coming. There are 28,000 sects

KCC1TIM: in the world, all claiming By Faith Alone and Scripture Alone, and

KCC1TIM: they are truly Alone. But Jesus Promised and guaranteed He

KCC1TIM: would remain with us, the Catholic Church till the end of time, i.e.

KCC1TIM: in the Holy Eucharist, fulfilling the Prophesy of Malachi 1:11; and

KCC1TIM: the Catholic Church is NOT ALONE!

KCC1TIM: James is my brother, though separated by protests of Doctrine,

KCC1TIM: we share the same Baptism, the very attribute that makes us

KCC1TIM: Christians. At the end of this evening I wish to extend to Mr.

KCC1TIM: White and his friends an invitation to come home to the Church

KCC1TIM: that Christ founded, the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I know I

KCC1TIM: can hear the laughter now, but maybe by the grace of God and

KCC1TIM: throught the Power of the Holy Spirit, we can settled all things

KCC1TIM: tonight. God love ya!

Orthopodeo: HELLO? Moderators? Please instruct KCC to slow his autoscrolling. It cannot be

Orthopodeo: read.

CCFSTiger: Mr. White, I believe it is your turn

Orthopodeo: Thank you all for being here this evening. I would like to state at the

Orthopodeo: beginning that our topic tonight is not sola scriptura, the Mass, or anything

Orthopodeo: else.... It is the Papacy. I will remain focused upon that, and ask that Tim

Orthopodeo: do the same thing. Secondly, I would like to ask Tim to refrain from

Orthopodeo: ad-hominem attacks, as I will as well. Thank you.

Orthopodeo: 1. The Roman Catholic Church claims that Peter is placed in a position of

Orthopodeo: primacy by the Lord Jesus Himself. This primacy is one of honor,

Orthopodeo: jurisdiction, and rulership.

Orthopodeo: 2. This primacy given to Peter is presented, according to the dogmatic

Orthopodeo: teachings of the Church of Rome, in Matthew 16:18-19 and in John

Orthopodeo: 21:15-17. According to Roman teaching, Peter is the rock of Matthew 16;

Orthopodeo: that Christ, in conferring a primacy upon Peter, intends this to be

Orthopodeo: understood to apply to Peter's successors as well, and that hence Christ

Orthopodeo: is, in this passage, instituting the office of the Pope (the Papacy) for the

Orthopodeo: Christian Church.

Orthopodeo: Rome further teaches that when Christ spoke to Peter and said "feed my

Orthopodeo: sheep," He was, by so doing, setting Peter apart as the pastor of all

Orthopodeo: Christians in a way different from all the other apostles.

Orthopodeo: 3. Peter is said to have been the bishop of Rome.

Orthopodeo: 4. Because of this, his supposed primacy is passed on to his successors,

Orthopodeo: the bishops of Rome.

Orthopodeo: 5. And finally, this viewpoint has supposedly been the ancient and

Orthopodeo: constant faith of the Christian Church. Supposedly the Church has always

Orthopodeo: believed this to be true. Anyone who would express a different

Orthopodeo: perspective is holding to perverse opinions, and are, in fact, anathema

Orthopodeo: (Vatican I's wording).

Orthopodeo: Statement: Therefore, it is incumbent upon the defender of Roman Catholic teaching

Orthopodeo: to demonstrate the following:

Orthopodeo: 1) Jesus is without question speaking to Peter in Matthew 16, and is in so doing

Orthopodeo: identifying him as the rock upon which the Church is built.

Orthopodeo: 2) That the words the Lord Jesus speaks establish Peter as the "prince of the

Orthopodeo: apostles," the very first pope, the head of the Christian Church.

Orthopodeo: 3) That these words of Jesus necessarily indicate the creation of an office

Orthopodeo: of Pope, replete with successors and the associated powers.

Orthopodeo: 4) And finally, that the Christian Church has always held this to be her

Orthopodeo: constant and unchanging faith.

Orthopodeo: We must note that my opponent cannot merely demonstrate that the

Orthopodeo: Roman position is probably true, or that it is likely to be true, but that it is

Orthopodeo: true beyond question. Rome claims absolute authority in spiritual matters

Orthopodeo: over all believers in Jesus Christ. She claims infallible teaching authority.

Orthopodeo: The Papacy is not an issue upon which one can be neutral.

Orthopodeo: Pope Boniface made this quite clear in the papal bull, Unam Sanctam promulgated

Orthopodeo: November 18th, 1302:

Orthopodeo: Consequently we declare, state, define and pronounce that it

Orthopodeo: is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature

Orthopodeo: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Orthopodeo: Given that there are only a handful of passages that can in any way be

Orthopodeo: construed as relevant to the Papacy in the entire Bible, I suggest we spend

Orthopodeo: the first hour discussing those passages, such as Matthew 16, John 21,

Orthopodeo: and Luke 22 (as I did in _The Roman Catholic Controversy_, pp.

Orthopodeo: 113-118). Then, in the second hour, we can address some of the

Orthopodeo: historical evidence.

Orthopodeo: Thank you.

KCC1TIM: Very Well. I shall prove that Jesus Christ did in fact Appoint St.

KCC1TIM: Peter to be His Vicar

KCC1TIM: Are we ready?

CCFSTiger: Tim wait

Orthopodeo: Shall we do the biblical evidence first, KCC?

CCFSTiger: ok - continue

KCC1TIM: Please, I am ready when you are

CCFSTiger: Ok Tim

KCC1TIM: My turn or James?

CCFSTiger: yours

KCC1TIM: I shall begin with John 21

KCC1TIM: John 21: 15-17 "When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said

KCC1TIM: to Simon Peter, Simon son of John do you love me more than

KCC1TIM: these?" He said to Him, "Yes Lord, you know that I love You."

KCC1TIM: Jesus said to him, "Feed My lambs." He then said to him a

KCC1TIM: second time, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" He said to

KCC1TIM: Him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed

KCC1TIM: My lambs."

KCC1TIM: He said to him a third time, "Simon son of John, do you love Me?"

KCC1TIM: Peter was distressed that He had said to him a third time, "Do

KCC1TIM: you love Me?" and he said to Him, "Lord, You know everything;

KCC1TIM: You know that I love You. Jesus said to him, "Feed my Sheep."

KCC1TIM: The question Christ asked, Do you love Me more than these,

KCC1TIM: meant did Peter love Him more than any of the Apostles. Christ

KCC1TIM: puts this question thrice to St. Peter, that triple protestation of

KCC1TIM: love, might correspond to his triple denial. St. Peter did not

KCC1TIM: answer that he loved Him more than the rest did, which he could

KCC1TIM: not know, (no one knows the interior of another), but he modestly

KCC1TIM: says, yes, Lord, You know that I love You: and the third time, You

KCC1TIM: know all things, and the hearts of all men, You know how much I

KCC1TIM: love You. At every protestation, Jesus answered feed My Lambs;

KCC1TIM: and the third time, feed My Sheep. To Feed, in the style of the

KCC1TIM: Scriptures is to Guide, Rule, and Govern.

KCC1TIM: As to why Jesus said Simon son of John: The father’s name is

KCC1TIM: added to discriminate him from Simon Thaddeus, ( the Zealot),

KCC1TIM: that Everyone might know that the Chief of the Universal Church

KCC1TIM: was not given to any other Apostle but Peter. This Simon son of

KCC1TIM: John is the same as Simon bar Jona.

KCC1TIM: St. Peter had 3 times renounced his Master; and Jesus, to give

KCC1TIM: him am opportunity of repairing his fault by a Triple confession,

KCC1TIM: three several times demanded of him, if he loved him more than

KCC1TIM: these. St. Augustine summed it up this way, "He who had thrice

KCC1TIM: denied through fear, might thrice confess through Love."

KCC1TIM: The lambs and Sheep of our Savior here mean the Faithful, who

KCC1TIM: compose His Church, without any distinction of Jew or Gentile.

KCC1TIM: St. Peter, by these words, is appointed to take charge of the

KCC1TIM: whole flock, as being the Chief and Prince of the Apostles. He

KCC1TIM: is, in some manner, the Pastor, not, only of the Sheep, but of the

KCC1TIM: Pastors themselves. They each have their own flock to look after;

KCC1TIM: but to Peter is committed the Care of ALL; He alone is the Pastor

KCC1TIM: of all.

KCC1TIM: Our Blessed Lord Promised the Spiritual Supremacy to St. Peter

KCC1TIM: (Matthew 16:19) and here He fulfills that Promise, by charging him

KCC1TIM: with the superintendency of all his sheep, without exception; and

KCC1TIM: consequently of his whole flock.

KCC1TIM: St. Ambrose and some others take notice, as if by the lambs,

KCC1TIM: might be understood the people, and the Sheep, those placed

KCC1TIM: over the people, as Bishops and Priests. But others make no

KCC1TIM: such difference in this place, between lambs and sheep, only as

KCC1TIM: comprehending all the Members of Christ’s Church, of what

KCC1TIM: condition so ever, even the rest of the Apostles. For here it was

KCC1TIM: that Christ GAVE to St. Peter that power which he had Promised

KCC1TIM: him, in the region of Ceasaria Phillipi, (Matthew 16:18) that is,

KCC1TIM: Jesus Christ NOW made Peter Head of HIS WHOLE CHURCH,

KCC1TIM: as He had insinuated the first meeting, when St. Andrew brought

KCC1TIM: his brother to Our Savior, When Christ CHANGED his name from

KCC1TIM: Simon to Peter: again, when He chose him, and made him the

KCC1TIM: FIRST of His 12 Apostles; but particularly, when He said to him,

KCC1TIM: Thou art Peter, (a Rock) and upon this Rock I will Build My

KCC1TIM: Church.

KCC1TIM: Upon this account the Catholic Church from the VERY FIRST

KCC1TIM: ages, has ALWAYS reverenced, and acknowledged the Supreme

KCC1TIM: power of the Successors of St. Peter, in spirituals, over all

KCC1TIM: Christian Churches. This appears also by the writings of

KCC1TIM: Tertullian, St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, of the greatest Doctors and

KCC1TIM: Bishops, both East and West, of St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St.

KCC1TIM: John Chrysostom, in several places, of the First General or

KCC1TIM: Ecumenical Councils, Particularly of the Council of Chalcedon,

KCC1TIM: 451 A.D.

CCFSTiger: wait 3 mins for reading

KCC1TIM: When you are finished, I shall next share with you 50 Biblical proofs.

Orthopodeo: I do hope we end up having something more than "core dump text file"

Orthopodeo: wars. I don't want to open the text files of my books (which I could do) and

Orthopodeo: just upload what everyone else can read. I thought this was supposed to

Orthopodeo: have interaction between the two of us.

KCC1TIM: It is James, I just anticpated a few things, I assure you.

CCFSTiger: you may continue

KCC1TIM: James, I am not just a truck driver you know. :)

Orthopodeo: For example, if you wish to discuss John 21, let's discuss it first, before

Orthopodeo: going on to Matthew 16. Then we can do Matthew 16.

KCC1TIM: Later, the 50 Proofs first

Orthopodeo: No, John 21 first.

JasonTE: Yes, complete John 21 first.

CCFSTiger: Tim - yes John 21 first

Orthopodeo: I agree with the interpretation presented by Cyril regarding John 21:

Orthopodeo: If anyone asks for what cause he asked Simon only, though the other

Orthopodeo: disciples were present, and what he means by "Feed my lambs," and the

Orthopodeo: like, we answer that St. Peter, with the other disciples, had been already

Orthopodeo: chosen to the Apostleship, but because meanwhile Peter had fallen (for

Orthopodeo: under great fear he had thrice denied the Lord), he now heals him that was

Orthopodeo: sick, and exacts a threefold confession in place of his triple denial,

Orthopodeo: contrasting the former with the latter, and compensating the fault with the

Orthopodeo: correction.

Orthopodeo: The passage involves the Lord Jesus' *restoration* of Peter, not the *elevation* of

Orthopodeo: Peter above anyone else.

Orthopodeo: The three-fold question reflects the three-fold denial Peter had uttered,

Orthopodeo: nothing more.

Orthopodeo: There is nothing in the passage that suggests that Peter is given any kind

Orthopodeo: of "primacy" at all, and it took centuries before anyone read that concept

Orthopodeo: into the passage.

KCC1TIM: Jesus is clear as I have written, that He is personally making Peter the shepherd.

Orthopodeo: Peter *A* shepherd, not THE shepherd.

Orthopodeo: "To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's

Orthopodeo: sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be

Orthopodeo: shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not

Orthopodeo: because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be;

Orthopodeo: not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those

Orthopodeo: entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock."

Orthopodeo: Those are Peter's own words, from 1 Peter 5:1. Notice he doesn't say

Orthopodeo: THE elder, but a FELLOW elder.

Orthopodeo: If you'd like to move to Matthew 16, there's a great deal there to cover.

KCC1TIM: The three-fold question reflects both the 3-fold denial and strongly

KCC1TIM: emphasizes Peter's humanity wil not interfere with his mission to

KCC1TIM: be shepherd on earth. No. he does say fellow elder in a vauge

KCC1TIM: sense. He is simply recognizing his fellow Bishops.

Orthopodeo: A "vague sense"? I will allow the reader to judge of that terminology.

KCC1TIM: Let's hold on with Mathew 16:18,

Orthopodeo: The point is, Tim, that my interpretation of John 21 is not only textually

Orthopodeo: consistent, but it is historical, as well. Yes, lets move on.

KCC1TIM: Vauge terminology? That is what this is all about

KCC1TIM: OK, the 50 Proofs.

Orthopodeo: The simple fact is, Tim, that the Apostle Peter never calls himself THE

Orthopodeo: shepherd. He calls himself a fellow elder.

KCC1TIM: 50 NEW TESTAMENT PROOFS FOR PETRINE PRIMACY AND

KCC1TIM: THE PAPACY

Orthopodeo: Not 50 proofs in one fell swoop. That would be meaningless. One or two at a time,

KCC1TIM: The Catholic doctrine of the papacy is biblically-based, and is

Orthopodeo: allowing for dialogue and discussion.

KCC1TIM: derived from the evident primacy of St. Peter among the apostles.

KCC1TIM: Like all Christian doctrines, it has undergone development through

KCC1TIM: the centuries, but it hasn't departed from the essential

KCC1TIM: components already existing in the leadership and prerogatives of

KCC1TIM: St. Peter. These were given to him by our Lord Jesus Christ,

KCC1TIM: acknowledged by his contemporaries, and accepted by the early

KCC1TIM: Church. The biblical Petrine data is quite strong, and is

KCC1TIM: inescapably compelling by virtue of its cumulative weight. This is

KCC1TIM: especially made clear with the assistance of biblical

KCC1TIM: commentaries. The evidence of Holy Scripture (RSV) follows:

KCC1TIM: 1. Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock

KCC1TIM: I will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail

KCC1TIM: against it."

KCC1TIM: The rock (Greek, petra) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not

KCC1TIM: his faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the

KCC1TIM: foundation, but as the architect who "builds." The Church is built,

KCC1TIM: not on confessions, but on confessors - living men (see, e.g., 1

KCC1TIM: Pet 2:5). Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great majority

KCC1TIM: of all biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the

KCC1TIM: traditional Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as

KCC1TIM: the foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior

KCC1TIM: of the family of God (i.e., the seed of the doctrine of the papacy).

KCC1TIM: Moreover, Rock embodies a metaphor applied to him by Christ in

KCC1TIM: a sense analogous to the suffering and despised Messiah (1 Pet

KCC1TIM: 2:4-8; cf. Mt 21:42).Without a solid foundation a house falls. St.

KCC1TIM: Peter is the foundation, but not founder of the Church,

KCC1TIM: administrator, but not Lord of the Church. The Good Shepherd

KCC1TIM: (John 10:11) gives us other shepherds as well (Eph 4:11).

KCC1TIM: 2. Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of

KCC1TIM: heaven . . ."

KCC1TIM: The "power of the keys" has to do with ecclesiastical discipline

KCC1TIM: and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the

KCC1TIM: faith, as in Isaiah 22:22 (cf. Is 9:6; Job 12:14; Rev 3:7). From this

KCC1TIM: power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution,

KCC1TIM: baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative

KCC1TIM: powers. In the Old Testament a steward, or prime minister is a

KCC1TIM: man who is "over a house" (Gen 41:40; 43:19; 44:4; 1 Ki 4:6;

KCC1TIM: 16:9; 18:3; 2 Ki 10:5; 15:5; 18:18; Is 22:15,20-21).

KCC1TIM: 3. Matthew 16:19 ". . . whatever you bind on earth shall be bound

KCC1TIM: in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in

KCC1TIM: heaven."

KCC1TIM: "Binding" and "loosing" were technical rabbinical terms, which

KCC1TIM: meant to "forbid" and "permit" with reference to the interpretation

KCC1TIM: of the law, and secondarily to "condemn" or "place under the ban"

KCC1TIM: or "acquit." Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority

KCC1TIM: to determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation

KCC1TIM: and the Spirit's leading (Jn 16:13), and to demand obedience from

KCC1TIM: the Church. "Binding and loosing" represent the legislative and

KCC1TIM: judicial powers of the papacy and the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn

KCC1TIM: 20:23). St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these

KCC1TIM: powers by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.

KCC1TIM: 4. Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk

KCC1TIM: 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the "first"

KCC1TIM: (10:2). Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.

TerryPax: Whew

Orthopodeo: Excuse me, but there are dozens of problems already.

Orthopodeo: We must discuss them now, or they will be irrelevant.

[At this point a hacker disrupted the room for about ten minutes]

KCC1TIM: OK are we squared away on John 21 yet?

Orthopodeo: KCC: Yes, it is. Now, can we do this interactively, or shall we just do the

Orthopodeo: dueling text files? I mean, I have megs of stuff on my web page I could

Orthopodeo: dump in here, and you'd never be able to answer half of it in the time

JPIPMPKP: to get offline for a minute

Orthopodeo: alloted. So, how about we get interactive?

Orthopodeo: I believe we have presented our respective understandings of John 21.

Orthopodeo: Let's move on to Matthew 16.

KCC1TIM: I have important info for you to read,

KCC1TIM: You want mat 16?

Orthopodeo: Then give us a link to a web page. Everyone can get it at their leisure.

KCC1TIM: There is not a link for all, most I have written myself

Orthopodeo: I have certain things ready to upload, but they are short, pointed, and for

Orthopodeo: interaction, not long text files you can't possibly respond to.

Orthopodeo: All my stuff I wrote, too. :)

JasonTE: No long text files.

KCC1TIM: I feel it is necessary to give the history on certain things

Orthopodeo: Let's start with the passage itself. Shall I upload it, or you?

KCC1TIM: I have it ready thanks

Orthopodeo: So do I. In its place.

KCC1TIM: OK you first

JPIPMPKP: wait

JPIPMPKP: who is in charge tim

JPIPMPKP: no ccfs staff here

KCC1TIM: You are Jpip and Jason TE

Orthopodeo: OK, let's do it this way. I'd like to present my understanding of the

Orthopodeo: passage. Then you can present yours. How does that sound?

KCC1TIM: OK with me

FSHG4PEACE: RC? Can you?

RCDEFENDER: sure

KCC1TIM: OK Jason and RC

ForTKing: :o)

Orthopodeo: KCC: Will you upload the text, please?

KCC1TIM: Please James, begin

Orthopodeo: You said you had it ready.

KCC1TIM: Oh, OK

JPIPMPKP: well so much for me!!!

RCDEFENDER: JPIPMPKP, go right ahead

Orthopodeo: (Matthew 16:18-19) "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this

Orthopodeo: rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Orthopodeo: [19] "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you

Orthopodeo: bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on

JPIPMPKP: i am joking!!!

Orthopodeo: earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Orthopodeo: Hey, that worked better than I thought. :)

Orthopodeo: We are asked to believe that not only is the impetuous and frail Peter

Orthopodeo: made the very foundation of the Church itself in this passage, but that this

Orthopodeo: foundational position creates an office of Pope, and that in fact this office

Orthopodeo: involves successors, successors who will sit in the seat of bishop in the far

Orthopodeo: off city of Rome, 1500 miles distant---a monarchical bishopric that will not

Orthopodeo: develop for another 110 years!

Orthopodeo: The central theme of this passage is the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. Any

Orthopodeo: interpretation that takes the focus off of Jesus as Messiah is missing the

Orthopodeo: point. Jesus' questions to the disciples about the opinions of the

Orthopodeo: multitudes, and then their own viewpoints, are all directed toward His own

Orthopodeo: person, His own identity.

Orthopodeo: The subject of the passage remains the identity of Christ, found in the

Orthopodeo: confession of Peter. When the Lord says, "I tell you that you are Peter, and

Orthopodeo: on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hades will not overcome

Orthopodeo: it," the focus does not change. Jesus is not here speaking of the identity

Orthopodeo: of Peter; He is still talking about Himself and His Church. This is plainly

Orthopodeo: seen by continuing on through verse 20, where we read, "Then he warned

Orthopodeo: his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."

Orthopodeo: The rock of which the Lord speaks is that common confession made by all

Orthopodeo: who are part of the Church: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Orthopodeo: This is seen, I believe, in the fact that while the Lord is addressing Peter

Orthopodeo: directly, He changes from direct address to the third person, "this rock,"

Orthopodeo: when speaking of Peter's confession. He does not say, "upon you, Peter, I

Orthopodeo: will build my church."

Orthopodeo: Instead, you have a clear distinction between Peter, the Petros, and the

Orthopodeo: third person petra, the confession of faith, upon which the Church is built.

KCC1TIM: are you finished James?

Orthopodeo: Just a moment.

Orthopodeo: One of the key issues regarding the Roman interpretation of this passage

Orthopodeo: has to do with the fact that it is claimed that Peter ALONE is given the

Orthopodeo: keys in this passage. However, there is a fundamental problem here: the

KCC1TIM: please continue

Orthopodeo: verb "will give" (Greek: doso) is FUTURE in tense. Jesus gives no one

Orthopodeo: any keys or binding authority in this passage.

Orthopodeo: So, given that Jesus here only promises to give the keys to Peter in this

Orthopodeo: passage, when, in fact, did He do this? If one says that the Bible does not

Orthopodeo: record this event, this seems quite strange, for such would be a

Orthopodeo: foundational event in the history of the Church.

Orthopodeo: However, I believe the fulfillment of this promise is indeed found in the

Orthopodeo: Bible: in Matthew 18:18. The phraseology of binding and loosing is

Orthopodeo: *identical* to the wording in Matthew 16, except that here the pronouns are

Orthopodeo: in the plural form, rather than the singular. Here, the power of binding and

Orthopodeo: loosing is given to ALL the apostles *together.*

Orthopodeo: Now, I stand with the early church in stating that the power of the keys and

Orthopodeo: the power of binding and loosing are IDENTICAL CONCEPTS. Biblically,

Orthopodeo: historically, and logically, the keys and the power of binding and loosing

Orthopodeo: are the same thing, and, since that authority was given to ALL the Apostles

Orthopodeo: *equally* in Matthew 18:18, the Roman interpretation is seen to be in error.

Orthopodeo: OK, all yours.

Orthopodeo: Is my understanding of the thrust of the passage clear to you, Tim?

JPIPMPKP: tim is reading

KCC1TIM: Well that is certainly your opinion. However, I will prove to you

KCC1TIM: that your Greek translation is erroneous, you have used the

KCC1TIM: Nominitive case when in fact it is the DATIVE case. You

KCC1TIM: mentioned the Future tense

KCC1TIM: r, it is the Historic Present tense

Orthopodeo: No, dwsw is in the future tense, not the historic present. That is a basic

Orthopodeo: fact of Greek grammar.

KCC1TIM: and litterally says having been bound in the Heavens

KCC1TIM: and whaterever thou bindest on earth

Orthopodeo: dwsw is the future of didwmi.

KCC1TIM: It is a done deal when Peter speaks it.

Orthopodeo: Please identify the noun to which you refer.

KCC1TIM: I think you have it backwards

Orthopodeo: petra is in the dative (or locative, if you use the 8 case system).

KCC1TIM: Peter is the Subject of that sentence and everything refers to him

Orthopodeo: Tim, two ways to settle this. I can open BibleWorks 3.5 and paste out the

Orthopodeo: parsing of the verb for you; or, since I teach Greek regularly, you can take

Orthopodeo: my word for it.

Dashace: can we hear Tims view? without interuption?

Orthopodeo: Peter is the subject of the blessing, but the clause about building the

Orthopodeo: church is in reference to petra.

KCC1TIM: it litterally says "I will give you the Keys of the Kingdom of the

KCC1TIM: heavens and whatever that you bindest on the earth shall be

KCC1TIM: having been bound in the Heavens." It is a done deal

KCC1TIM: OK, Now let me show you:

Orthopodeo: Yes, you are referring to verse 19. Fine. It says "I WILL give." Future

Orthopodeo: tense. When did this happen, Tim?

JPIPMPKP: MR WHITE PLEASE WAIT

KCC1TIM: Matthew 16:18-20. Jesus and His Apostles were traveling through

KCC1TIM: the region of Ceasaria Philipi, when they came to rest at a place

Orthopodeo: JP: Polite interaction is within the rules, my friend.

KCC1TIM: at the headwaters of the Great River. No doubt the Apostles were

KCC1TIM: struck in

KCC1TIM: awe at the picturesque spectacle of God’s handiwork, the massive

KCC1TIM: rock formation beyond the river. While the Apostles gazed at the

KCC1TIM: breathtaking formation of rock, in the quietude of the moment,

KCC1TIM: Jesus seized the opportunity and asked, "Who do men say that I

KCC1TIM: am?" The Apostles answered, some say John the Baptist, Elijah,

KCC1TIM: one of the Prophets, etc. Then Simon bar (son of) Jona spoke up,

KCC1TIM: "You are the Christ!" It is this proclamation, revealed to the

KCC1TIM: fisherman by God our Father, therefore indicating he was chosen

KCC1TIM: by God, for greatness, that Our Blessed Lord made him His Vicar.

KCC1TIM: Jesus said: "And I say unto you, and tell you why I before

KCC1TIM: declared, (John 1:42) that YOU SHOULD BE CALLED PETER, for

KCC1TIM: you are constituted the Rock upon which, as a foundation, I will

KCC1TIM: build My Church," and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates

KCC1TIM: (i.e. the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if

KCC1TIM: they overturn its foundation, (i.e. You and Your successors) they

KCC1TIM: will overturn also the Church that rests upon it. Christ therefore

KCC1TIM: here Promises to Peter, that he and his successors should be to

KCC1TIM: the end, as long as the Church should last, its supreme pastors

KCC1TIM: and princes.

KCC1TIM: In the Syriac tongue, which is that which Jesus spoke, there is no

KCC1TIM: difference of genders, as in Greek and Latin, between petra, a

KCC1TIM: rock, and Petrus, Peter; hence, in the original language, the

KCC1TIM: allusion was both

KCC1TIM: more natural and more simple.

KCC1TIM: You are Peter and upon this Rock (i.e. upon You, according to the

KCC1TIM: literal and general exposition of the ancient Fathers) I WILL BUILD

KCC1TIM: MY CHURCH.

KCC1TIM: It is true St. Augustine expounds these words, AND UPON THIS

KCC1TIM: ROCK, (i.e. upon Myself:) or upon This Rock, which Peter has

KCC1TIM: confessed: yet he owns that he had also given the other

KCC1TIM: interpretation, by which Peter himself was the Rock. Some

KCC1TIM: Fathers have also expounded it, UPON THE FAITH, which Peter

KCC1TIM: confessed; but then they take NOT faith, as separated from the

KCC1TIM: person of Peter, but ON Peter, as holding the true Faith. No one

KCC1TIM: questions that Christ Himself is the great Foundation-stone, the

KCC1TIM: Chief Cornerstone, as St. Paul tells the Church at Ephesus (Eph

KCC1TIM: 2:20) but it is also certain, that all the Apostles may be called

KCC1TIM: foundation-stones of the Church, as represented in Revelations

KCC1TIM: 21:14. In the Meantime, St. Peter, (called therefore Cephas, a

KCC1TIM: rock) was the First and Chief Foundation-stone among the

KCC1TIM: apostles, on whom Christ promised to build His Church.

KCC1TIM: YOU ARE PETER, as St. Peter, by Divine revelation, here made a

KCC1TIM: solemn profession of Faith of the Divinity of Christ, so in

KCC1TIM: recompense of this Faith and profession, Our Blessed Lord here

KCC1TIM: declares him to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise

KCC1TIM: him: that he, to whom he had already given the name of Peter,

KCC1TIM: signifying a ROCK, (John 1:42) should be a rock indeed, of

KCC1TIM: invincible strength, for the support of the building of the Church; in

KCC1TIM: which building he should be next to Christ himself, the chief

KCC1TIM: Foundation-stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor;

KCC1TIM: and should have accordingly all fullness of Ecclesiastical power,

KCC1TIM: signified by the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.

KCC1TIM: UPON THIS ROCK. The words of Christ to Peter spoken in the

KCC1TIM: vulgar language of the Jews, which Our Blessed Lord made use

KCC1TIM: of, were the same as if he had said in English, "You are a rock,

KCC1TIM: and upon this rock I will build My Church." So that, by the plain

KCC1TIM: course of the words, Peter is here DECLARED to be the rock,

KCC1TIM: upon which the Church was to be built; Christ Himself being both

KCC1TIM: the principal foundation and Founder of the same. Where also

KCC1TIM: note, that Christ by building His house, that is, His Church, upon

KCC1TIM: a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like a

KCC1TIM: wise builder, (Matt 7:24-25). And God only knows how many

KCC1TIM: storms we have had! The Gnostics, the Roman Persecutions, the

KCC1TIM: Donatists, the Bogomils, the Arians, the Cathari, the Albigensies,

KCC1TIM: the Waldensians, the Greek Schisms, Protestantism, etc., to

KCC1TIM: name a few. We have weathered this storm for nearly 2,000

KCC1TIM: years, just as Christ had predicted we would. Jesus warned us

KCC1TIM: about the False Prophets.

KCC1TIM: THE GATES OF HELL. That is the powers of darkness, and

KCC1TIM: whatever Satan can do, either by himself or his agents. For as

KCC1TIM: the Church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock;

KCC1TIM: so the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress,

KCC1TIM: the gates of which, i.e. the whole strength, and all the efforts it

KCC1TIM: can make will NEVER be able to prevail over the City or Church of

KCC1TIM: Christ, the Catholic Church. By this promise we are fully assured,

KCC1TIM: that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever

KCC1TIM: shall at any time prevail over the Church of Christ, the Catholic

KCC1TIM: Church.

KCC1TIM: THE GATES, in the oriental style, signify the powers; thus, to this

KCC1TIM: day, we designate the Ottoman or Turkish Empire by the Ottoman

KCC1TIM: port. The Princes were wont to hold their courts of the city.

KCC1TIM: AND I WILL GIVE TO YOU THE KEYS. This is another

KCC1TIM: metaphor, expressing the Supreme power and prerogative of the

KCC1TIM: Prince of the Apostles. The keys of a city, or of its gates, are

KCC1TIM: presented or given to the

KCC1TIM: person that has the Chief power. We also own a power of the

KCC1TIM: keys, given to the other Apostles but with a subordination to St.

KCC1TIM: Peter and to his successor, as Head of the Catholic Church.

KCC1TIM: AND WHATSOVEVER YOU SHALL BIND. All the Apostles and

KCC1TIM: their successors, partake also of this power BINDING and

KCC1TIM: LOOSING but with a due subordination to one head invested with

KCC1TIM: the Supreme Power.

KCC1TIM: LOOSE ON EARTH. The loosing of the bands of temporal

KCC1TIM: punishments due to sins, is called an Indulgence: The power of

KCC1TIM: which is here granted. Although Peter and his successors are

KCC1TIM: mortal, they are nevertheless endowed with Heavenly Power says

KCC1TIM: St. John Chrysostom, nor is the sentence of life and death passed

KCC1TIM: by Peter to be attempted to be reversed, but what he declares is

KCC1TIM: to be considered to be a Divine answer from Heaven, and what he

KCC1TIM: decrees, a Decree of God Himself.

KCC1TIM: HE THAT HEARS YOU HEARS ME. The power of binding is

KCC1TIM: exercised, first by refusing to absolve; second by enjoining

KCC1TIM: penance for sins forgiven; third by excommunication, suspension

KCC1TIM: or interdict; fourth by making rules and laws for the government of

KCC1TIM: the Church; fifth by determining what is of Faith by judgments and

KCC1TIM: definitions of the Church. The terms BINDING & LOOSING are

KCC1TIM: equivalent to OPENING and CLOSING, because formerly the

KCC1TIM: Jews opened the fastenings of their doors by untying it, and they

KCC1TIM: shut or secured their doors by tying or binding it.

KCC1TIM: Dr. Whitby a learned Protestant divine, thus expounds this and

KCC1TIM: the proceeding verse: "As a suitable return to your confession, I

KCC1TIM: say also to you, that you are by name Peter, a rock; and upon

KCC1TIM: You are this rock I will build My Church, and I will give to you the

KCC1TIM: Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, the POWER of making laws to

KCC1TIM: govern My Church."

KCC1TIM: Dr. Hammond, another Protestant divine, explains it in the same

KCC1TIM: manner. And he says: "What is here meant by the Keys, is best

KCC1TIM: understood by Isaia 22, where they signify ruling the whole family

KCC1TIM: or house of the King: and this being by Christ accommodated to

KCC1TIM: the Church denotes the power of governing it."

KCC1TIM: TELL NO ONE THAT HE WAS JESUS, the CHIRST. In some

KCC1TIM: MSS, both Greek and Latin, the Name Jesus is not found, and

KCC1TIM: many interpreters think it superfluous in this place. The Greek

KCC1TIM: expressly says the Christ adjoining the article, which the Latin

KCC1TIM: tongue does not express. "In a proceeding part of Scripture,

KCC1TIM: Jesus sending His Apostles, Commanded them to publish His

KCC1TIM: coming; but here he seems to give a contrary mandate, TELL NO

KCC1TIM: ONE, but in my opinion it is one thing to preach the Christ, and

KCC1TIM: another to preach Christ Jesus; for Christ is a name of dignity, but

KCC1TIM: Jesus is the particular name of the Redeemer."-Dr. Hammond.

KCC1TIM: St. Jerome says, "He did not forbid them to teach that there was a

KCC1TIM: Messias a Redeemer, but to declare then that He was the

KCC1TIM: Person; second, the disciples (Matthew 10), are not sent to

KCC1TIM: preach the Gospel,

KCC1TIM: strictly speaking, but only to prepare the minds and hearts of the

KCC1TIM: people for the coming of the Messias, as is evident from Mat

KCC1TIM: 10:23. See Mark 14:61-62. John 5:18, 8:58, 10:30, and 6:27.

KCC1TIM: But why did he lay this injunction? To avoid the envy of the

KCC1TIM: Scribes, and not to appear to raise His own Glory. He wishes the

KCC1TIM: people to be induced to own Him for their Messias, not from the

KCC1TIM: testimony of his retainers, but from His miracles and doctrines;

KCC1TIM: and lastly, because as His time was not yet come, the Apostles

KCC1TIM: were not yet fit to deliver, not the people to receive, this grand

KCC1TIM: tenet."

KCC1TIM: OK 5 mins for reading?

JPIPMPKP: tim you done

Orthopodeo: That's all very nice, but so far, you have failed to deal with the basic facts of

Orthopodeo: the matter. Back to the issue: the verb "I WILL give" is future tense. This

Orthopodeo: is not an arguable fact, and unless you can provide a single scholarly

Orthopodeo: source that says otherwise, it is an established fact. Now, please answer

Orthopodeo: the question I asked: where does Jesus give these keys to Peter?

KCC1TIM: That is right!

KCC1TIM: Jesus is Commissioning Peter for his FUTURE MISSION!

Orthopodeo: OK, and when does Peter receive these keys, please?

KCC1TIM: Which we have already seen in John 21!~

Orthopodeo: There was nothing in John 21 about keys, Tim. So, where and when does Peter

Orthopodeo: receive the keys?

KCC1TIM: He got them at the time of that Promise at Caesaria Philippi

Orthopodeo: Tim, the future means he will receive the keys in the FUTURE, not then.

KCC1TIM: NO, Sir. He recveved the Keys then and was promised to be the

KCC1TIM: Head of His Church. Stop switching tenses

Orthopodeo: You see, the only *biblical* way of looking at the passage is recognizing

Orthopodeo: that Jesus is saying to Peter that he, Peter, will receive keys. But, when

Orthopodeo: you look at Matthew, you find Peter receiving the keys ALONG WITH THE

Orthopodeo: OTHER DISCIPLES in Matthew 18:18.

KCC1TIM: NO

KCC1TIM: He said YOU are Peter Not You ARE it is a singular you

Orthopodeo: The grammar is identical between the two passages, and you are forced

KCC1TIM: Not You ALL

Orthopodeo: to either deny the force of the future tense of dwsw, or, you are forced to

Orthopodeo: say the Bible does not record the giving of these keys to Peter.

KCC1TIM: Not even

Orthopodeo: That is correct....in Matthew 16 the pronoun is singular. In Matthew 18 it is

Orthopodeo: plural. The issue is the fact that in Matthew 16 NO ONE IS GIVEN A KEY.

KCC1TIM: The Bible says what it says, why do you not believe it?

JPIPMPKP: MR WHITE pleease let tim finish his sentence!!!

KCC1TIM: Now, question for you?

Orthopodeo: I will gladly leave to the audience whether I am believing the text or not.

KCC1TIM: Show us in history before the year 1500 where your views were believed?

KCC1TIM: Can you do that?

Orthopodeo: If you'd like to switch to history, I'd be glad to.

KCC1TIM: Just show the point.

Orthopodeo: Yes, in point of fact, Tim, the views I have of Matthew 16 are the

Orthopodeo: MAJORITY view of the early Church.

Orthopodeo: Canon 35 of the Apostolic Constitutions reads, "The bishops of every

Orthopodeo: country ought to know who is the chief among them, and to esteem him as

Orthopodeo: their head, and not to do any great thing without his consent; but every one

Orthopodeo: to manage only the affairs that belong to his own parish, and the places

Orthopodeo: subject to it. But let him not do anything without the consent of all; for it is

KCC1TIM: And always have been, since there was no other Church than the Catholic Church

Orthopodeo: by this means there will be unanimity, and God will be glorified by Christ, in

Orthopodeo: the Holy Spirit."

Orthopodeo: Following in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and

Orthopodeo: acknowledging the canon, which has been just read...we also do enact

Orthopodeo: and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy

Orthopodeo: Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome. For the Fathers rightly

Orthopodeo: granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city.

Orthopodeo: And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the

Orthopodeo: same consideration, gave equal privileges to the most holy throne of New

Orthopodeo: Rome, justly judging that the city which is honored with the Sovereignty and

Orthopodeo: the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should

Orthopodeo: in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after

Orthopodeo: her.

Orthopodeo: That's the 28th Canon of Chalcedon, btw.

JPIPMPKP: MR white can you allow some time for reading

Orthopodeo: The Council of Nicea provides us with yet another fact that is contrary to

Orthopodeo: Papal claims. It is to be found in canon 6 of that council, and it reads as

Orthopodeo: follows:

Orthopodeo: Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis prevail, that

Orthopodeo: the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction

Orthopodeo: in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also.

Orthopodeo: Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces,

Orthopodeo: let the Churches retain their privileges.

Orthopodeo: JP: My scrolls are far slower than Tim's.

KCC1TIM: I am caught up

JPIPMPKP: MR white are you switching to history???

KCC1TIM: And I shall now answer Canon 6

Orthopodeo: So really, Tim, it's hard to know where to start!

KCC1TIM: Let me refute you on Canon 6 first

Orthopodeo: JP: Excuse me, but KCC switched to history, not me.

Orthopodeo: Before you "refute" me, how about letting me explain it?

JPIPMPKP: OK Jason are you noticing this

KCC1TIM: I did not switch, I asked you to show me in history about Mat 16:18

Orthopodeo: OK, if you wish to focus solely upon Matthew 16, that is easily done. Shall

KCC1TIM: I will now refute Canon 6 and your erroneous claims

Orthopodeo: we focus?

JasonTE: JP, they agreed to address history for a while.

KCC1TIM: This will take me some time, please bare with me

Orthopodeo: No, Tim, I haven't even explained my citation of it yet. How can you refute my

Orthopodeo: "erroneous claims" when I haven't made any yet? :O)

KCC1TIM: The First Ecumenical Council of Nicea was held in 325. An

KCC1TIM: Ecumenical or General Council represents the entire teaching of

KCC1TIM: the Church as opposed to a Synod or a metropolitan or a national

KCC1TIM: council. The Ecumenical Council, like the Pope, is infallible in

KCC1TIM: matters of Faith and Morals because it is the voice of the teaching

KCC1TIM: Church.

KCC1TIM: At this time a heresy had arisen in Alexandria and at that time

KCC1TIM: was making great headway throughout the East, the heresy of

KCC1TIM: ARIUS, a priest of Alexandria. Arius taught that Jesus Christ was

KCC1TIM: not truly Divine, that His nature was not the same as that of the

KCC1TIM: Father but only similar. It was to study this question and to

KCC1TIM: pronounce the true teaching of the Church that the Bishops from

KCC1TIM: all parts of the Empire made their way to Nicea in 325. The

KCC1TIM: Emperor Constantine, still a catechumen, had at first made light

Orthopodeo: First, Tim, you didn't ask me about Matthew 16 originally; you asked about

Orthopodeo: my "view."

KCC1TIM: of the matter, but when his eyes were opened to the danger of

KCC1TIM: Arian doctrine by Hosius of Cordova, he became so interested

KCC1TIM: that he went to Nicea Himself. He begged the Bishops from

KCC1TIM: every country to attend the

KCC1TIM: Council. Even Bishops from outside the Roman Empire attended,

KCC1TIM: such as the Bishop of Persia.

KCC1TIM: Pope St. Sylvester I sent two legates to represent him, Vitus and

KCC1TIM: Vicentius, and it seems that it was the Pope who suggested the

KCC1TIM: term CONSUBSTANTIAL (same substance) to describe the

KCC1TIM: relation of Christ’s

KCC1TIM: nature to the Father.

KCC1TIM: The Council Condemned Arius and drew up the famous Nicean

KCC1TIM: Creed, which we still say at Holy Mass today in all Catholic

KCC1TIM: Churches throughout the world. The Creed proclaims that Jesus

KCC1TIM: is True God of True God consubstantial (one in being) with the

KCC1TIM: Father. The Council drew up 20 Canons. They are:

KCC1TIM: Canon I On the Admission. or support, or expulsion of clerics

KCC1TIM: mutilated . by choice or vengeance.

KCC1TIM: Canon II Rules to be observed for Ordination, the avoidance of

KCC1TIM: undue . . haste, the deposition of those guilty of a

KCC1TIM: grave fault.

KCC1TIM: Canon III All members of the Clergy are forbidden to dwell with

KCC1TIM: any

KCC1TIM: woman, except a mother, sister or aunt.

Orthopodeo: Tim: Please, another text file on something will accomplish nothing. Please do

KCC1TIM: Canon IV Concerning Episcopal Elections.

Orthopodeo: interactive stuff on specific issues, please.

KCC1TIM: Canon V Concerning the Excommunicate.

KCC1TIM: Canon VI Concerning Patriarchs and their Jurisdiction. (This is

KCC1TIM: the

KCC1TIM: Canon in question, I will explain it thoroughly in a

KCC1TIM: moment).

KCC1TIM: Canon VII Confirms the right of the Bishops of Jerusalem to enjoy

KCC1TIM: certain

KCC1TIM: honors.

KCC1TIM: Canon VIII Concerns the Novatians.

KCC1TIM: Canon IX Certain sins known after ordination involve invalidation.

KCC1TIM: Canon X LAPSI who have been ordained knowingly or

KCC1TIM: surreptitiously

KCC1TIM: must be excluded as soon as their irregularity is

KCC1TIM: known.

KCC1TIM: Canon XI Penance to be imposed on apostates of the

KCC1TIM: persecution of

KCC1TIM: Licinius.

KCC1TIM: Canon XII Penance to be imposed on those who upheld Licinius

KCC1TIM: in his

KCC1TIM: war on the Christians.

KCC1TIM: Canon XIII Indulgence to be granted to excommunicated persons

KCC1TIM: in

KCC1TIM: danger of death.

KCC1TIM: Canon XIV Penance to be imposed on catechumens who had

KCC1TIM: weakened

KCC1TIM: under persecution.

KCC1TIM: Canon XV Bishops, Priest, and Deacons are not to pass from

KCC1TIM: one

KCC1TIM: Church to another.

KCC1TIM: Canon XVI All clerics are forbidden to leave their Church. Formal

Orthopodeo: Tim: Uploading an entire listing of all canons of Nicea does nothing for the

Orthopodeo: debate. Please.

KCC1TIM: Prohibition of Bishops to ordain for their Diocese a

KCC1TIM: cleric

KCC1TIM: belonging to another Diocese.

KCC1TIM: Canon XVII All clerics are forbidden to lend at interest.

KCC1TIM: Canon XVIII Recalls to Deacons their subordinate position with

KCC1TIM: regard to

KCC1TIM: Priests.

KCC1TIM: Canon XIX Rules to be observed with regard to adherents of Paul

KCC1TIM: of

KCC1TIM: Samosata who wished to return to the Church.

KCC1TIM: Canon XX On Sundays and during the Paschal Season prayers

KCC1TIM: should

KCC1TIM: be said standing.

KCC1TIM: Canon VI States:

KCC1TIM: "Let the ancient custom which is followed in Egypt and Libya and

KCC1TIM: the Pentapolis remain in force, by which the Bishop of Alexandria

KCC1TIM: has the supervision of all those places, since this is also the

KCC1TIM: custom of the Bishop of Rome. Similarly, in regard to Antioch

KCC1TIM: and the other provinces, let the inherited rights of the Churches be

KCC1TIM: preserved. Certainly it is quite clear that if someone has been

KCC1TIM: made Bishop without the consent of the Metropolitan, the great

KCC1TIM: Council defines that such a one is not a Bishop. If however, the

KCC1TIM: vote was participated in by all, and was made in discernment and

RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, once started Tim's auto scroller wont stop till done

KCC1TIM: in accord with the canons, but it is yet opposed by reason of the

KCC1TIM: contentiousness displayed by two or three, let the vote of the

KCC1TIM: majority prevail."

KCC1TIM: This is what the Canon states. The ridiculous claim you have

KCC1TIM: about other Bishops having the same right as Pope, are one of a

KCC1TIM: Deceiver. I believe it is your intention Mr. White, to go out of your

KCC1TIM: way to champion a false cause. The ancient custom, that means

KCC1TIM: it had been structured like this in the Church for years! The

KCC1TIM: Metropolitan, is the Bishop governing his See and other Sees in a

KCC1TIM: given area. The Metropolitan submits to the Pope, the Vicar of

KCC1TIM: Christ, the Head of the Church on Earth. We must read this for

KCC1TIM: what it says, NOT for what one wants it to say. In this case the

KCC1TIM: Bishop of Alexandria has supervision in his given area, The next

KCC1TIM: part, "since this is also the Custom of the Bishop of Rome" KEY

KCC1TIM: WORD ALSO, in other words, the Bishop of Rome ALSO has

KCC1TIM: supervision over ALL the Metropolitans in ALL areas. There is

KCC1TIM: NOTHING here that indicates anything else. Only a false Prophet

KCC1TIM: or deceiver would think otherwise. It seems to me, that anyone

KCC1TIM: well versed in history would find this argument ridiculous to say

KCC1TIM: the least. The Primacy of the Pope is not in question here, only

KCC1TIM: the Delegation of authority to Metropolitan Bishops in their

KCC1TIM: geographical areas.

KCC1TIM: Let me give you an example of what the Metropolitan does. Let’s

KCC1TIM: say you are the Defendant in a law suite. You are dissatisfied

KCC1TIM: with a judge’s ruling, you would appeal your case to the Ninth

KCC1TIM: Circuit Court of

KCC1TIM: Appeals, there is no way you could appeal to the Supreme Court,

KCC1TIM: you would have to go locally first. The Metropolitan in this case

KCC1TIM: would be the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals and the Pope in Rome

KCC1TIM: would represent the Supreme Court in this illustration.

KCC1TIM: Remember, the Arian Heresy was spreading, and was very

KCC1TIM: powerful among the military, decisions had to be made and

KCC1TIM: communications for what they were, there was no time to wait for

KCC1TIM: an answer from Rome. This delegation of authority to the

KCC1TIM: Metropolitans made perfect sense and, by the way, this practice

KCC1TIM: has continued to this present day.

Orthopodeo: This is ridiculous.

JPIPMPKP: MR WHITE???

KCC1TIM: That is a fact.

JasonTE: Tim, please don't use long text files.

Orthopodeo: Tim, I'll put it plainly. If you dump another couple hundred lines of

Orthopodeo: uninterrupted text, I will consider this "debate" over. OK? This is foolish.

Orthopodeo: One point at a time. Chunks that can be digested. Meaningful interaction,

Orthopodeo: OK?

RCDEFENDER: KCC1TIM, Orthopodeo, do you both now agree to no long text files?

KCC1TIM: This question cannot be answered in a simple sentence

KCC1TIM: I ust prove to you beyond a shadow of your doubt

Orthopodeo: That's the problem with online debates, my friend. You have to cut up your

Orthopodeo: information and explain it succinctly.

Cuchulan2: Orthopod: what's the matter? slow reader? :)

RCDEFENDER: Cuchulan, please stop

Orthopodeo: JP: I object to your being a moderator to begin with. You are tremendously biased.

KCC1TIM: Mr. White, I think you have struck out.

CalDef: this is ridiculous, sorry

RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, do you agree to me?

Orthopodeo: Tim, now, shall we try to make this meaningful, or do you wish to just try to

JPIPMPKP: MR white sorry but i have been chosen

Orthopodeo: win by throwing long text files around?

KCC1TIM: Winning is not my concern James

Orthopodeo: I have a small number of citations in short, easy to read bites. I never

Orthopodeo: considered taking my book, for example, and autoscrolling it.

KCC1TIM: What concerns me is winning YOU for Christ

JasonTE: Tim, you've been told at least a few times that long text files are not allowed.

Orthopodeo: I do this type of thing to help others, Tim, not to attempt to flood a room with my

Orthopodeo: writings. Now, please, can we discuss the issues *directly*?

KCC1TIM: Jason, that was never agreed to prior to the debate

Cuchulan2: this is getting childish...maybe we should just go with shorter pieces?

Cuchulan2: of text?

JasonTE: James didn't use anything that even approached the length of Tim's last text file.

JPIPMPKP: CUCH please

Orthopodeo: OK, I'm going to make one last effort. In your text file you called my use of

Orthopodeo: the 6th canon "ridiculous" and a few other ad-hominems, correct?

KCC1TIM: I did

RCDEFENDER: KCC1TIM, Orthopodeo, do you both agree to no more long text

RCDEFENDER: files........on 10 lines at a time?

RCDEFENDER: on = only

KCC1TIM: It depends, I cannot on what I am asked

Orthopodeo: Now, let's get specific. If there was a functioning Papacy at the time, why

Orthopodeo: does the 6th canon exist? That is, you seem to assume there was one.

Orthopodeo: Newman and others recognize there was not. Is it your position that at

Orthopodeo: Nicea the Pope was seen as the Vicar of Christ, the leader of ALL

Orthopodeo: Christians?

JPIPMPKP: RC tim has many texts prepared

JasonTE: The chat room wasn't agreed to either. There had to be changes. Long text files just

JasonTE: aren't practical here.

Orthopodeo: Long text files are not practical anywhere. If someone wants to read long

Orthopodeo: text files, I will send them my book. :)

JPIPMPKP: Jason i agree

KCC1TIM: I have Cardinal Newman's entire text, would you like to see it?

Cuchulan2: I would.

JPIPMPKP: TIM are we going to continue??

KCC1TIM: Cardinal Newman coverted to the Catholic Faith, James

Orthopodeo: No, I wouldn't. :) Specifically, however, he did speak to the development of teh

Orthopodeo: Papacy over time. Do you agree or disagree with him?

Orthopodeo: We recognize that there are Roman Catholics who would not assert that

Orthopodeo: we can find the Papacy functioning in the New Testament, for, as John

Orthopodeo: Henry Cardinal Newman said in his book, _An Essay on the Development

Orthopodeo: of Christian Doctrine_, "While Apostles were on earth, there was the

Orthopodeo: display neither of Bishop nor Pope; their power had no prominence, as

Orthopodeo: being exercised by Apostles. In course of time, first the power of the

Orthopodeo: Bishop displayed itself, and then the power of the Pope" (p. 149).

KCC1TIM: No he did not do that James. You are obviously quoting Lorrain Boetner

Orthopodeo: And Newman goes on to quote with approval Barrow, who wrote, "It is

Orthopodeo: most prodigious that, in the disputes managed by the Fathers against the

Orthopodeo: heretics, the Gnostics, Valentinians, &c., they should not, even in the first

Orthopodeo: place, allege and urge the sentence of the universal pastor and judge, as a

Orthopodeo: most evidently conclusive argument, as the most efficacious and

Orthopodeo: compendious method of convincing and silencing them."

Orthopodeo: I have never cited Lorrained Boettner in my life, actually.

Orthopodeo: I have Newman's works in my library.

JPIPMPKP: TIM are you going to continue we are all over the map[ here

Orthopodeo: But that is a side issue anyway. I assume you believe there was a

Orthopodeo: functioning Papacy in 325?

JPIPMPKP: MR white

JPIPMPKP: please wait jason you there

KCC1TIM: There was a functioning Papacy sine Peter. Irenaeus proved that

KCC1TIM: with his list of Popes

JPIPMPKP: what exactly are we going to do here and what exactly is the topic HISTORY???

KCC1TIM: As did Eusibius

JasonTE: Let them go, JP. Don't interupt unless there's a real need to.

Orthopodeo: Lists of bishops of Rome do not equal a functioning Papacy, my friend.

KCC1TIM: Thankyoui

JPIPMPKP: Jason i do not agree

KCC1TIM: We have Papal writings from every Pope except Linus

Orthopodeo: No one argues that there was no bishop in Rome in 325 (I'd assert there was no

Orthopodeo: monarchical episcopate in Rome until 140, however). The issue is how the bishop of

Orthopodeo: Rome was *seen* at that time.

KCC1TIM: You are quoting Mac Onaghie's version of Newman's text

Orthopodeo: We have *writings* from *bishops* of Rome, not 'Popes'.

Orthopodeo: I was citing the Notre Dame printing of Newman, actually. It's sitting on my

KCC1TIM: The Pope = Bishop of Rome

Orthopodeo: desk next tome.

KCC1TIM: What Cardinal Newman is actually saying in this text

Orthopodeo: No, Tim, the earliest uses of "Pope" were not of the bishop of Rome. In

Orthopodeo: fact, Cyprian was addressed as "Pope" by the deacons of Rome!

KCC1TIM: Is that he as a Protestant did not understand the Papacy, and

KCC1TIM: that is why he converted to the Catholic Faith.

KCC1TIM: I have that on file James

KCC1TIM: St Cyprian of Carthage, in the year 252 wrote the following in a

KCC1TIM: letter to Pope Cornelius, proving once again the Bishop of Rome,

KCC1TIM: the Pope, has the right of speaking EX-CATHEDRA, and is

KCC1TIM: infaliblie.

KCC1TIM: "With a false Bishop apponinted for themselves by heretics, they

KCC1TIM: dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and

KCC1TIM: blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the Principal Church, in

KCC1TIM: which Sacerdotal unity has its source; not did they take thought

KCC1TIM: that these are Romans, whose faith was praised by the preaching

KCC1TIM: Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for perfidy to have

KCC1TIM: entrance."

Orthopodeo: I simply invite all interested to read the passage for themselves. I obtained

Orthopodeo: my copy of Newman's work from a Catholic bookstore. The section

Orthopodeo: begins, "For instance, St. Ignatius is silent in his Epistles on the subject of

Orthopodeo: the Pope's authority."

KCC1TIM: James,

KCC1TIM: You are quoting the last thing Cardinal Newman wrote as a Protestant layman

KCC1TIM: He was not a priest in 1834

KCC1TIM: Sorry

Orthopodeo: Tim, if you think Cyprian thought the Pope was infallible, could you please

KCC1TIM: 1845

Orthopodeo: respond to the following citation of Cyprian?

Orthopodeo: Cyprian didn't seem to believe the bishop of Rome had supreme, let alone

Orthopodeo: infallible, jurisdiction: "Neither can it rescind an ordination rightly perfected,

Orthopodeo: that Basilides, after the detection of his crimes, and the baring of his

Orthopodeo: conscience even by his own confession, went to Rome and deceived

Orthopodeo: Stephen our colleague, placed at a distance, and ignorant of what had

Orthopodeo: been done, and of the truth, to canvass that he might be replaced unjustly

Orthopodeo: in the episcopate from which he had been righteously deposed."

Orthopodeo: And, if the early Church believed as you do, why did the 7th Council of

Orthopodeo: Carthage say the following?

Orthopodeo: The Seventh Council of Carthage, under the leadership of Cyprian, said,

Orthopodeo: "For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by

Orthopodeo: tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of

Orthopodeo: obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty

Orthopodeo: and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be

Orthopodeo: judged by another than he himself can judge another."

KCC1TIM: First of all, I did not know Cyprian lived to be over 500 years old

Orthopodeo: Excuse me?

KCC1TIM: How can he write in the 3rd century and then you quote him in the 7th century?

Orthopodeo: I didn't. You misread me.

KCC1TIM: In 256, Cyprian wrote:

KCC1TIM: Would heretics dare to come to the very Seat of Peter

KCC1TIM: whence Apostolic Faith is derived and wither no Errors can come.

Orthopodeo: Thank you, Tim, for brining up the cathedra Petri, the chair of Peter.

KCC1TIM: Or to put it simply, St. Augustine said, Rome has spoken the case is closed.

Orthopodeo: Much is often made by Roman Catholic apologists of the fact that Cyprian,

Orthopodeo: the bishop of Carthage in the middle of the 3rd century, viewed Peter as

Orthopodeo: the "rock" of Matthew 16. Yet, they almost never tell the rest of the story, if

Orthopodeo: they are even aware of it. And that is this: the "cathedra Petri," the "chair

Orthopodeo: of Peter," in Cyprian (and the rest of the North African Fathers) was not

Orthopodeo: located in Rome alone, but in *all* sees. *All* bishops sit in the chair of

KCC1TIM: The Chair is the Office of the Pope

Orthopodeo: Peter.

Orthopodeo: Notice Cyprian's own words from Epistle XXVI: "Our Lord, whose

Orthopodeo: precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honor OF

Orthopodeo: A BISHOP (emphasis mine), and the order of His Church, speaks in the

Orthopodeo: Gospel, and says to Peter: "I say unto you...[Matt 16:19 cited] Thence,

Orthopodeo: through the change of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and

Orthopodeo: the plain of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon

Orthopodeo: the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same

Orthopodeo: rulers."

Orthopodeo: So you see, Tim, you last statement is historically incorrect. The chair is

Orthopodeo: NOT the office of 'Pope" for Cyprian. It is the office of BISHOP.

Orthopodeo: Augustine knew this well, and used the same terminology.

KCC1TIM: However, Peter is still the Head and the First Pope as I have

KCC1TIM: stated several times tonight with Proof that you seem to ignore.

Orthopodeo: BTW, as to your use of Augustine's statement, that's not even what he

Orthopodeo: actually wrote, as I'm sure you know.

KCC1TIM: Yes, we know Cyprian was a Bishop and he was in Communion with the Pope

Orthopodeo: I've ignored nothing but long, long text files, my friend, and even then, I've

Orthopodeo: tried to respond to as much as I could.

KCC1TIM: James, the quote by Augustine was in his Sermons.. Sorry

KCC1TIM: buddy, but you struck out there.

Orthopodeo: He was in communion with the bishop of Rome. Please show me anywhere where

Orthopodeo: Cyprian called the man "Pope," or in any way bowed to his ultimate authority.

Orthopodeo: Tim: Which sermon is it? I know, but do you?

Orthopodeo: What was the topic Augustine was addressing?

KCC1TIM: James, the Term Pope is irrelevant

KCC1TIM: The Official Title of the Pope or the Bishop of Rome is:

KCC1TIM: The Servant of the Servants of God.

Orthopodeo: If it is irrelevant, stop using it anachronistically to describe a period when

Orthopodeo: there was no one who claimed the title.

Orthopodeo: Now, about Augustine. What was the topic, please?

KCC1TIM: It is like the Trinity, it is not mentioned in the bible, yet, we both

KCC1TIM: agree that it is so.

KCC1TIM: Did not St. Paul say not to bicker over words?

Orthopodeo: The evidence for the Trinity is broad and deep, and found throughout

Orthopodeo: Scripture. The evidence for the Papacy is not even in the same universe,

Orthopodeo: comparatively speaking.

KCC1TIM: 2 Tim 2:15 I believe?

Orthopodeo: Can you answer the question about Augustine, or shall we conclude that you simply

Orthopodeo: cited it, without reading it?

JPIPMPKP: mr white is this relevant???

KCC1TIM: James, Jesus was not passing gas in the wind when He gave peter the Keys

Orthopodeo: It is.

JPIPMPKP: tim answer if you know or not

KCC1TIM: LEt me scroll uop

KCC1TIM: I was typing

Orthopodeo: Tim, it seems you have come to the end of your rope here. I find the

Orthopodeo: phraseology offensive, first of all, even if Luther would have liked it.

Orthopodeo: Secondly, you have never once answered a simple question: since the

Orthopodeo: verb is future, when is this promise fulfilled?

Orthopodeo: If I say, "I will (future tense) give Tim a thousand dollars," isn't it reasonable

Orthopodeo: to ask, "When?"

KCC1TIM: Augustine was simply saying the Pope was the Supreme Leader

KCC1TIM: on Earth and the quote is

Orthopodeo: Tim: Which Pope, and what was the subject?

Orthopodeo: In fact, what is the direct quote?

KCC1TIM: authentic, which you seem to think is made up

RCDEFENDER: KCC1TIM, and Orthopodeo, end of first hour ( I goave extra time due

RCDEFENDER: to hacker and Tim getting punt)

KCC1TIM: All the Popes and their successors James

Orthopodeo: I did not say it was inauthentic. It is Sermon 131. I've read it. Have you?

KCC1TIM: I would not quote it if I didn;t

Orthopodeo: Tim: Please, I'm going to let you off the hook on that one. I simply will

Orthopodeo: suggest that the readers look at what Augustine REALLY said in Sermon

Orthopodeo: 131. Now, back to Matthew 16.

KCC1TIM: St. Siricius was Pope at the time of Augustine

KCC1TIM: It is your move then?

Orthopodeo: Tim, the discussion had nothing to do with the Papacy, nor the power of Rome. Read

Orthopodeo: it sometime. Now, back to your colorful metaphor about the keys. When did Jesus

Orthopodeo: give Peter the keys? What specific point in time, please?

KCC1TIM: The Keys are clearly defined in Isaia 22:22

Orthopodeo: Isaiah 22 speaks of the key (singular) of the House of David. Please show

Orthopodeo: me how the KEY (singular) of the house of David became the KEYS

Orthopodeo: (plural) of heaven?

KCC1TIM: Why do you think Jesus gave Peter the Keys? It was not to drive a Mercedes.

KCC1TIM: Yes, James, I stated that in my text earlier

Orthopodeo: Please show me where the New Testament says the KEY of David is to be identified

Orthopodeo: as the KEYS of the House of David?

Orthopodeo: And, could you please explain how Jesus still has the KEY of David in Revelation 3:7?

Orthopodeo: (Revelation 3:7) "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He

Orthopodeo: who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one

Orthopodeo: will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

KCC1TIM: The Apostles were Jews, they understood this. Why can't you?

KCC1TIM: The Angels in the Book of Revelations were the Bishops of the Catholic Church

Orthopodeo: I understand it just fine, Tim. Let's put it this way. Can you cite a SINGLE

Orthopodeo: father of the early Church...all the way to say, 1,100 AD, who saw Isaiah 22

Orthopodeo: in the way you do? Just one?

KCC1TIM: Now it just might make some sense to you.

KCC1TIM: There are many

KCC1TIM: Cyprian and I quote

Orthopodeo: Revelation 3:7 says it is JESUS who HAS (present tense) the key of David. How did

Orthopodeo: the bishop of Rome (who is not addressed in the book of Revelation) have the same

Orthopodeo: key, please?

KCC1TIM: "To be in Communion with the Bishop of Rome, is to be in

KCC1TIM: Communion with the Catholic Church."

KCC1TIM: Peter had the Keys James

KCC1TIM: they were passed on

Orthopodeo: Tim, Cyprian said nothing about Isaiah 22. Now, please, a single early Father who

Orthopodeo: cited Isaiah 22 and made the application you did. Please?

KCC1TIM: that means to his successors

KCC1TIM: He made reference to the pope James.

Orthopodeo: Yes, Peter had the keys....which he received EQUALLY with the other Apostles in

Orthopodeo: Matthew 18:18. Yes or no?

KCC1TIM: One point at a time here please

KCC1TIM: You are jumping around James

Orthopodeo: Tim, I'm going to take your responses as indicative of the fact that you

Orthopodeo: can't answer the question and can't give me a single early Father who

Orthopodeo: used Isaiah 22 as you do.

Orthopodeo: No, my friend, I'm simply responding to your points as they appear on my screen.

KCC1TIM: James I just did

KCC1TIM: I gave you reference to the Pope

Orthopodeo: No, Tim, as anyone can see, you did not provide a quotation from Cyprian regarding

Orthopodeo: Isaiah 22. Do you claim you did?

KCC1TIM: The Keys are the Authority of his office

KCC1TIM: the Symbol

Orthopodeo: Which Cyprian said ALL bishops hold. Fine, now, back to your use of Isaiah 22.

Orthopodeo: Where did ANYONE in the history of the first ONE THOUSAND YEARS of the Church

Orthopodeo: use this passage as you are using it?

KCC1TIM: James a direct quote on Isaia was made by Jesus Christy Himself, isn't He qualified?

Orthopodeo: You see, Tim, I can cite lots of folks who interpreted Matthew 16:18 as I do;

Orthopodeo: but you can't cite a single person who interpreted Isaiah 22 as you do. Isn't

Orthopodeo: that a little strange?

KCC1TIM: Jesus is the Rock, and hewn from that Rock is Peter and his successors

Orthopodeo: Yes, Jesus quoted the passage....of HIMSELF, not the bishop of Rome.

KCC1TIM: Christ did

KCC1TIM: Is that starnge James?

Orthopodeo: Well, I believe the point has been made beyond question. Let me address an issue

Orthopodeo: that hasn't yet come up.

Orthopodeo: How do you deal with the fact that historically there was no monarchical (one man)

Orthopodeo: episcopate in Rome until about AD 140?

KCC1TIM: That is not true You are attempting to change history

Orthopodeo: OK, if I might substantiate my statement.

KCC1TIM: Even Paul subbmitted to Peter's authority

Orthopodeo: One of the most troubling facts of the historical record for defenders of the Roman

Orthopodeo: supremacy is that there was no monarchical (one-man) episcopate in Rome until

Orthopodeo: around 140AD. As patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly noted concerning Anacletus, "His

Orthopodeo: actual functions and responsibilities can only be surmised, for the monarchial, or

Orthopodeo: one-man, episcopate had not yet emerged in Rome."

Orthopodeo: We shouldn't miss the significance of this reality: if the most ancient form

Orthopodeo: of church government prevailed in Rome until the middle of the second

Orthopodeo: century (that being a plurality of elders as seen in the NT), then obviously

Orthopodeo: no one believed that the Church's foundation was to be found in the single

Orthopodeo: bishop of Rome, the successor of Peter!

KCC1TIM: I will now refute that

Orthopodeo: And lest you think this is just a Protestant conclusion, I refer you to Joseph

Orthopodeo: F. Kelly, a Roman Catholic, writing for The Liturgical Press, in his book,

Orthopodeo: _The Concise Dictionary of Early Christianity_, where Kelly remarks, ". . . it

Orthopodeo: is likely that in the earliest Roman community a college of presbyters

Orthopodeo: rather than a single bishop provided the leadership." See also Kenneth

Orthopodeo: Strand, "Governance in the First-Century Christian Church in Rome: Was it

Orthopodeo: Collegial?" (Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring, 1992, Vol. 30,

Orthopodeo: No. 1, 59-75.)

Orthopodeo: This explains why Clement's letter is written in the plural, without even

Orthopodeo: Clement's name attached, and why when Ignatius wrote to the Romans, he

Orthopodeo: never once mentioned their bishop!

KCC1TIM: In regards to the letter of Clement I of Rome to the Corinthians

KCC1TIM: written about 96 AD. This showed the jurisdiction of the Bishop of

KCC1TIM: Rome, the Pope, over Bishops outside the Diocese of Rome. It is

KCC1TIM: an authentic case and documented of the Bishop of Rome

KCC1TIM: claiming a Primacy of jurisdiction outside of Rome. His letter was

KCC1TIM: read at Mass at the Catholic Churches in Corinth on Sundays and

KCC1TIM: adhered to.

Orthopodeo: BTW, may I take a moment to thank the folks in this room? I think it is

Orthopodeo: great that you all are observing without interruption. My thanks to you.

Orthopodeo: Actually, Tim, I'm glad you brought up that letter.

KCC1TIM: Yes thanks to you too everyone has been great

KCC1TIM: Good.

Orthopodeo: Could you please cite a single passage in the letter where the single

Orthopodeo: bishop of Rome speaks?

KCC1TIM: Clement is the Bishop of Rome, there is only one at time.

Orthopodeo: In fact, can you provide a single reference from the letter that identifies

Orthopodeo: Clement as its writer?

KCC1TIM: LOL, come now James, you are grasping at straws

Orthopodeo: That is a historical anachronism, my friend, You are reading history

Orthopodeo: backwards through the eyes of Rome. That is my whole point. When you

Orthopodeo: read history as history stands, you find things to be quite different.

Orthopodeo: You may laugh at patristic scholars like Kelly if you wish, but that doesn't

Orthopodeo: change the reality of the citations I provided above.

KCC1TIM: The history was NEVER changed until after the Reformation.

Orthopodeo: The fact is, if you read Clement (it is required reading in the Christology

Orthopodeo: class I am teaching right now), you will find that the letter is written by a

Orthopodeo: GROUP of ELDERS in Rome, not by a BISHOP. Now, if you wish me to

Orthopodeo: cite examples, I will.

KCC1TIM: If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, then I cannot be wrong on this

KCC1TIM: That is your opinion

Orthopodeo: It is quite easy to invoke the claim of the Spirit on your own side, Tim. I

Orthopodeo: could do the same. But there is one difference: when I speak of the truth, I

Orthopodeo: can document it. You seemingly are having a hard time doing that.

KCC1TIM: Who wrote your text book?

Orthopodeo: It's not a text book, my friend. It's the text of the epistle I was making

Orthopodeo: reference to, known as 1 Clement.

KCC1TIM: I have documented nearly everything and you complained about it

Orthopodeo: Documentation is other than text dumping, my friend.

KCC1TIM: I gave you the quote it says what it says

KCC1TIM: You pass it off as text dumping, but in actuallity it refutes your views

Orthopodeo: Now, can you show me a single reference in that epistle (the Greek of

Orthopodeo: which is sitting next to my keyboard) that identifies Clement as its author,

Orthopodeo: and the single bishop of Rome as exercising jurisdiction over the

Orthopodeo: Corinthians?

Orthopodeo: You could prove that easily, Tim, by just providing the evidence I'm asking for.

KCC1TIM: Are you reading any this?

Orthopodeo: Of course, Tim. Now, can you answer the last few questions, please?

KCC1TIM: Let me scroll up

Orthopodeo: Up above you gave me a seven line paragraph on Clement. See it?

Orthopodeo: You said it is a documented instance of the BISHOP of Rome claiming "a

Orthopodeo: Primacy of jurisdiction outside of Rome." I am asking you to prove your

Orthopodeo: point from the text itself.

KCC1TIM: Yes I did, and He addressed the Corinthians

KCC1TIM: The Metroplitan again

Orthopodeo: The letter addresses the Corinthians. Please show me where it speaks of

KCC1TIM: Ok bare with me

Orthopodeo: the "bishop" (singular) of Rome.

KCC1TIM: St. Cyril of Jerusale, 363

Orthopodeo: What does Cyril of Jerusalem have to do with Clement's epistle to the Corinthians

Orthopodeo: nearly 300 years earlier?

Sherimar: but HE SHOULD BE !!!!!!!!!

KCC1TIM: In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, also the formost of the

KCC1TIM: Apostles and The KEYBEAR

Sherimar: sorry

Orthopodeo: Had to be said, eh, Sheri? :) Tension breaker.

KCC1TIM: of the Kingdom of Heaven, healed Aeneas the paralytic in the

KCC1TIM: name of Christ. That answers your Early Father on the Keys

KCC1TIM: Stand bye for Corinthians

KCC1TIM: First, I would like to answer the Metropolitan question

KCC1TIM: That concerns the council of Nicea

Orthopodeo: I didn't ask a Metropolitan question. To what do you refer?

KCC1TIM: Canon 6

Orthopodeo: Oh, OK.

KCC1TIM: I shared part of my answer with you already

KCC1TIM: Now bear with me please

KCC1TIM: This will settle all agrements

KCC1TIM: THE SIXTH NICENE CANON AND THE PAPACY

Orthopodeo: I think you mean arguments, and to be honest, I doubt it. :)

KCC1TIM: by James F. Loughlin

KCC1TIM: American Catholic Quarterly Review, v.5, 1880, pp.220-239

KCC1TIM: Electronic version Copyright © 1997, Classica Media, Inc.

KCC1TIM: [Ta archaia ethe krateito ta en Aigupto kai Liboe kai Pentapolei,

KCC1TIM: hoste ton Alexandreias episopon panton touton echein ten

KCC1TIM: exousian, epeide kai to en te Rome episkopo touto sunethes

KCC1TIM: estin. Homoios de kai kata Antiocheian kai en tais allais

KCC1TIM: eparchias ta presbeia sozesthai tais ekklesiais]1

KCC1TIM: Those holy and venerable Fathers of Nicæa," said St. Leo I the

Orthopodeo: No, Tim, don't upload another text.

KCC1TIM: Great,2 "who, after having condemned to eternal infamy Arius and

KCC1TIM: his blasphemies, enacted a series of church canons destined to

KCC1TIM: have force to the end of times are not dead; for, both here at

KCC1TIM: Rome and throughout the whole world they are judged to be still

KCC1TIM: living in their immortal decrees." We feel this undying influence of

KCC1TIM: the three hundred and eighteen bishops just as vividly to-day,

KCC1TIM: though nearly sixteen centuries have passed since they met in

KCC1TIM: Bithynia, as St. Leo did fourteen hundred years ago. Of the twenty

KCC1TIM: canons which they promulgated, not one has grown entirely

KCC1TIM: obsolete; for the majority of them relate to things of catholic and

KCC1TIM: fundamental interest, and the few which were enacted for the

KCC1TIM: protection of assailed individual rights or the extirpation of local

KCC1TIM: abuses have in them a germ of immortality.

KCC1TIM: Canon VI. is an instance of this latter class. The main object of

KCC1TIM: the decree is to confirm the time-honored privileges of the See

KCC1TIM: ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

KCC1TIM: 1 The rest of the canon deals with matters which do not here

KCC1TIM: concern us.

KCC1TIM: 2 Ep. 106, ad Anatolium.

KCC1TIM: of Alexandria. From time immemorial the bishops of that city had

KCC1TIM: claimed and exercised supreme jurisdiction over the churches of

KCC1TIM: Egypt and the neighboring provinces. They received the appeals of

KCC1TIM: the bishops from the sentence of their metropolitans; convened

KCC1TIM: and presided over provincial synods; they ordained a if necessary,

KCC1TIM: deposed bishops; in a word they were, in the phraseology of a

KCC1TIM: later age, patriarchs. Whatever may have been the source of this

KCC1TIM: authority, there is no record of its having been contested by any of

KCC1TIM: the Egyptian bishops before Meletius of Lycopoli, raised the

KCC1TIM: standard of rebellion.

KCC1TIM: This Meletius, as we learn from Socrates,1 having been degraded

KCC1TIM: by St. Peter of Alexandria in consequence of many heavy

KCC1TIM: charges, the most grievous of which was that during the

KCC1TIM: persecution he had denied the faith and sacrificed, would not

KCC1TIM: submit to the sentence of his superior; and not content with

KCC1TIM: renouncing all allegiance to the Alexandrian See, he arrogated an

KCC1TIM: equal right with the patriarch to ordain bishops and convene

KCC1TIM: synods throughout Egypt. By attaching to his cause all the

KCC1TIM: disaffected elements through the country, he sowed religious

KCC1TIM: dissension in every parish, and soon was leader of a numerous

KCC1TIM: and devoted faction, which obtained quite a formidable accession

KCC1TIM: of strength by coalition with the partisans of Arius. Indeed the

KCC1TIM: desire of putting an end to the Meletian schism was one of the

KCC1TIM: chief motives which impelled Constantine, "with the advice of the

KCC1TIM: clergy," to convoke the Nicene Council.

KCC1TIM: The great synod decreed "that the ancient order of things in

KCC1TIM: Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis must be maintained, to wit, that the

KCC1TIM: Bishop of Alexandria should have authority over all these

KCC1TIM: provinces." And lest similar disorders might arise in Antioch or

KCC1TIM: elsewhere, the Council enacted furthermore "that all the churches

KCC1TIM: should keep their ancient standing."

KCC1TIM: The decree thus far is perfectly clear and reasonable; but it is not,

KCC1TIM: to use St. Leo's term, [diaionizon]. Its importance has not survived

KCC1TIM: the ravages of time. Many an age has rolled by since those

KCC1TIM: brilliant luminaries of ancient Christendom—Alexandria, Antioch,

KCC1TIM: Heraclea, Cæsarea, Ephesus—were extinguished. They were

KCC1TIM: undoubtedly grand and princely in the day of their strength, but

KCC1TIM: their greatness was of men and shared the inevitable fate of

KCC1TIM: human things. Of what importance, save to the antiquary, are now

KCC1TIM: those old patriarchates with their accessories of high prerogatives,

KCC1TIM: august state, and far-stretching boundaries? If it was permitted to

KCC1TIM: those ancient princes of the Church to revisit these mortal

KCC1TIM: scenes, their self-esteem would probably be less mortified by

KCC1TIM: finding that every vestige of their patriarchdoms has been swept

KCC1TIM: away, than by perceiving how

KCC1TIM: ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

KCC1TIM: 1 Lib. i., c. 6.

KCC1TIM: Ok I have 7 more parts, please say when you are ready

Orthopodeo: Unlike my adversary, I will give you a brief discussion of the relevance of

Orthopodeo: Canon 6. It's significance is easily understood: If in fact there was a

Orthopodeo: functioning Papacy at the time of Nicea (which there wasn't), having a

Orthopodeo: canon that gives LIMITED jurisdictional rights to the bishop of Rome,

KCC1TIM: It is imparative that you read this to comprehend

Orthopodeo: merely recognizing that he , like other individuals, had such rights in the

Orthopodeo: past, would hardly be of assistance.

Orthopodeo: No, Tim, you have been asked not to upload massive text files. Condense

Orthopodeo: the material and explain the assertions.

KCC1TIM: I have already given you the answer to that

JPIPMPKP: tim MR white we have to be fair here

Orthopodeo: JP: Yes, we do. And uploading text files is not fair, nor useful.

JPIPMPKP: tim please just say it concisely as you can

KCC1TIM: OK, We'll play it your way

JPIPMPKP: MR white do not harrass me again

Orthopodeo: I wasn't, JP.

JPIPMPKP: i was trying to be fair

KCC1TIM: The fact of the matter is, the Council delagated the authority of the

KCC1TIM: Pope to the Metroploitian Bishops

Orthopodeo: That assumes what you have yet to prove, Tim: that existence of the

Orthopodeo: Papacy at the time of the writing!

KCC1TIM: With Communications what they were in the 4th Century it made sense to do this

Orthopodeo: You see, without the anachronistic *assumption* of the existence of an

Orthopodeo: edifice that *evolved* over time, the historical information simply doesn't

Orthopodeo: say what you would like it to say.

KCC1TIM: I have proved to you already, but your stubborness like Phjaroe of

KCC1TIM: the OT has hardened your heart. You have eyes, but do not see.

KCC1TIM: OK, Here is what Pope Gregory the Great said in 600

Orthopodeo: It is easy to dismiss such things by saying your opponent is spiritually

KCC1TIM: about John 21

Orthopodeo: blind, my friend, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Orthopodeo: I will gladly grant you Pope Gregory six hundred years after Christ.

Orthopodeo: Of course, you might want to avoid quoting his rejection of the Apocryphal books,

Orthopodeo: though. . . . :) < grin! >

KCC1TIM: "By the voice of the lord, the Care of the whole Church was

KCC1TIM: committed to Peter, ther Head of all the Apostles; for to him it

KCC1TIM: was said, Peter lovest thou Me feed My Sheep."

Orthopodeo: I will gladly admit that the Popes of Rome claimed this passage for

Orthopodeo: themselves in later church history. Would you care to quote any, though, in

Orthopodeo: the early periods? Say, in the first four hundred years?

KCC1TIM: No James that is not true

KCC1TIM: Gregory did no such comning of the Dueterocanonical books

Orthopodeo: What isn't true, Tim?

KCC1TIM: Where did you come up with that one?

Orthopodeo: Yes, my friend, he did. It's pretty well known, actually. But, that's another

Orthopodeo: issue. I shouldn't have brought it up.

KCC1TIM: You should not have brought it up because it only exists only in your mind

KCC1TIM: Next question please?

Orthopodeo: Gregory the Great, Morals on the Book of Job, Vol. II, parts III and IV, Book

Orthopodeo: XIX.34, in A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church, p. 424.

Orthopodeo: "With reference to which particular we are not acting irregularly, if from the

Orthopodeo: books, though not Canonical, yet brought out for the edification of the

Orthopodeo: Church, we bring forward testimony. Thus Eleazar in the battle smote and

Orthopodeo: brought down an elephant, but fell under the very beast that he killed (1

Orthopodeo: Macc. 6.46)."

Orthopodeo: Not my mind, friend, in simple historical record.

Orthopodeo: (The New Catholic Encyclopedia confirms that Pope Gregory did not accept a

Orthopodeo: canonical status for the Apocrypha (II:390).)

Orthopodeo: Does the New Catholic Encyclopedia exist only in my mind, Tim?

KCC1TIM: That is Macc 3 and 4 James, Not Books 1 and 2

KCC1TIM: Books one and 2 anre Canonical

Orthopodeo: Sorry, friend, look again: FIRST Macc 6:46.

KCC1TIM: Sorry, but good try!

Orthopodeo: Very good try indeed, since it is truth.

Orthopodeo: Would you like to hear what Cardinal Cajetan said about that, Tim?

KCC1TIM: That is off the subject anyhow James

JPIPMPKP: MR white do you have another point??

Orthopodeo: Fine.

KCC1TIM: Oh BTW

Orthopodeo: According to my clock, we've been at this right at 2 hours now, correct?

KCC1TIM: The letter to the Corinthians

RCDEFENDER: Time check: 1 1/2 hours

Orthopodeo: We began well before 7PM. Had a brief interruption, and continued.

RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, I gave a half hour for all the trouble earlier

JasonTE: Correct, James.

KCC1TIM: You werre leading up to the Second letter of Clement which has been termed bogus

Orthopodeo: No, my friend, I made no reference to such a letter at all.

KCC1TIM: St. Sotor

KCC1TIM: admonished the Corinthians

KCC1TIM: That is your early Father in 166

Orthopodeo: I referenced only 1 Clement, the recognized and correct text. I asked you

Orthopodeo: to show me a single place wherein that letter you find the SINGLE "bishop"

Orthopodeo: of Rome referenced.

KCC1TIM: I will quote it

Orthopodeo: Quote only from 1 Clement, please. That's all I cited.

KCC1TIM: "You have also by your very admonition

Orthopodeo: I cited no spurious books, and I ask that you don't, either. We don't need

Orthopodeo: to begin discussing the Donation of Constantine or all the other spurious

Orthopodeo: books that have been used through the centuries to support Papal claims.

KCC1TIM: Pope St. Sotor did not write a spurrious book

KCC1TIM: His letter addressed the church in Corinth

JPIPMPKP: MR white could you define spurious???

KCC1TIM: False

KCC1TIM: Spurrius = false

JPIPMPKP: but who decided what is spurious ??

Orthopodeo: Soter wrote a letter sometime after 166. So? What does this have to do with

Orthopodeo: Clement's epistle to the Corinthians?

RCDEFENDER: JPIPMPKP, please only KCC1TIM, and Orthopodeo,

Orthopodeo: Excuse me, but Tim used the term "bogus" and said that I was "leading up" to it. I

Orthopodeo: wasn't.

KCC1TIM: You asked nme to give you an early father writing to the

KCC1TIM: Corinthians. I have now done so.

Orthopodeo: I did not ask you to give me an early father who wrote to the Corinthians. I

Orthopodeo: asked you to back up what you said in your own statement about

Orthopodeo: Clement's epistle to the Corinthians.

KCC1TIM: I gave you the quote

Orthopodeo: YOU said that this letter provides a DOCUMENTED example of Papal

Orthopodeo: jurisdiction. I've simply asked you to DOCUMENT what you claimed to do.

Orthopodeo: Excuse me, but how can you cite a letter written generations later as if it is

Orthopodeo: relevant to the earlier one?

KCC1TIM: What, do you want me to type the entire letter in here?

KCC1TIM: Come james! Be reasonable!

Orthopodeo: No, I could do that if I wanted to.

KCC1TIM: That is why I made text files to save time!

Orthopodeo: It's simple, Tim. I've asked you to quote from CLEMENTS epistle to the Corinthians

Orthopodeo: which is what YOU were citing.

Orthopodeo: Can you, or can you not, document your OWN claim regarding 1 Clement?

KCC1TIM: I did that once, but ok, if you insist

Orthopodeo: No references to some later epistle, since that is irrelevant.

KCC1TIM: let me dig it out

Orthopodeo: You have not provided such a citation.

KCC1TIM: This is going to take some time, what exactly is your point?

Orthopodeo: No need, Tim. My point is clear.

KCC1TIM: Your point is irrelevant

Orthopodeo: YOU claimed that in FIRST CLEMENT we have a DOCUMENTED

Orthopodeo: instance of Papal jurisdiction and primacy outside the city of Rome. You

Orthopodeo: can't document that claim, and have consistently refused to do so.

KCC1TIM: "The Church of God which sojourns in Rome

KCC1TIM: to the Church of God which sojourns in Corinth

Orthopodeo: Yes, thank you! The CHURCH, not the BISHOP. Keep typing it in!

KCC1TIM: to those who are called and sanctified by God

RCDEFENDER: Time check: Per a 2 hour debate there is 15 mins left. Do you each

RCDEFENDER: want to do any closing statements giving yourselves a few mins for a

RCDEFENDER: rebuttal?

KCC1TIM: Grace and peace from Almighty God

KCC1TIM: be multiplied unto you through Jesus Christ

Orthopodeo: Let me give you some more...."...which are befalling us, brethren, WE

Orthopodeo: consider that we have been somewhat tardy in giving heed to the matters

Orthopodeo: of dispute that have arisen among you..."

KCC1TIM: owing to the sudden and repeated calamities

KCC1TIM: and the misfortunes which have befallen us

Orthopodeo: See the verb Tim? WE. Plural. Not "I" as in "I the bishop of Rome." The

Orthopodeo: entire letter is like that, friend.

Orthopodeo: Please, if you wish to have any passage in the letter quoted, tell me. I can

Orthopodeo: quote it directly from my CD ROM.

KCC1TIM: we must acknowlege that we have been somewhat tardy

Orthopodeo: Just give me the reference.

KCC1TIM: OK the WE

KCC1TIM: He is speaking about the Magisterium of the Church

Orthopodeo: What passage would you like cited? I'll fire up SAGE right away.

KCC1TIM: that is the Majkestic plural

KCC1TIM: Majestic

Orthopodeo: Please show me where Clement speaks of the Magisterium.

KCC1TIM: Just like Kings do

KCC1TIM: The magisterium is the Pope and the Bishops in Communion with him

KCC1TIM: Notice it starts out the Church of God? That is MORE than ONE person

KCC1TIM: He is simply the Head

Orthopodeo: No, my friend, the "we" is the plural elders of the church at Rome. As

Orthopodeo: J.N.D. Kelly notes, there was no SINGLE bishop of Rome. But, I think the

Orthopodeo: point is now very firmly established.

KCC1TIM: JND is out to lunch

KCC1TIM: No where in history it that ever been taught

Orthopodeo: I think that's probably a good comment on which to end our dispute this evening. :)

KCC1TIM: IIf you are conceding fine, but you have failed to prove your point. I

KCC1TIM: nhave refuted you

Orthopodeo: I would like to thank JasonTE for his patience, as well as AOMIN, too.

KCC1TIM: my fault you do not want to comprehend.

RCDEFENDER: 12 mins left. are both sides calling an end?

Orthopodeo: RC: I'm sorry, but we began well over two hours ago. I think we've

Orthopodeo: covered what is going to be useful this evening.

Orthopodeo: Besides, my keyboard is smoking. :)

RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, very well Tim?

RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, LOL

KCC1TIM: It is Ok by me.

Orthopodeo: Thank you, Reader, for coming by.

RCDEFENDER: very well the debate is over

KCC1TIM: But let it be know it was NOT I that ended this

Orthopodeo: Tim, shall we stick around and open it up for dialogue for a few minutes?


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