"Our ambition...is to be pleasing to Him" (2 Cor. 5:9)
Office Hours (MT)
Dr. James White, Director
Richard Pierce, President
Sean Hahn, Vice President
Monday - Friday
10:00AM - 5:00PM
(602) 973-4602



The Debate .... Ends

But the Bullying Just Begins....



A lesson in not wasting your time with street thugs.

Meaningful debates require that both sides maintain adult behavior. Unfortunately, some people can fake a sufficient level of maturity to make it look like they might be able to behave in a scholarly and adult manner---right up to the point where they begin throwing a temper tantrum, or casting about insults. Such was the case with "Brother John Mary," a heretical monk from an order of self-described "Mary worshippers."

As those who followed this saga know, we began a debate with "Brother John." The files of the first few exchanges are included below. It only took one round for the ad-hominems to begin to fly, and the rules to fall by the wayside. Many wrote to us complaining that John Mary is a very poor representative of Catholicism, and we could hardly argue that point. We pointed out that he had already lost the debate by breaking the rules in his first response (see Brother John Mary Disqualified) and that he was behaving in a simply infantile manner. But, we replied anyway. That was in the middle of 1997. Six months went past with only one message from John Mary:

Date: 97-10-09 09:49:39 EDT
From: slaves@top.monad.net (Saint Benedict Center)
To: Orthopodeo@aol.com

I finished my priority assignments, and I'm coming after you. Expect my
rebuttal by next week the earliest. Gee... I just love cliffhangers, don't
you? Oh, and by-the-way: I listened to the debate between you and
Butler/Sungenis -- you got your scrawny little Prot. butt kicked (they also
exposed you for the culpable, blatant liar that you are). Need I issue
threats about how I will leave you? Please post this letter with my other
insulting ones -- I like the attention.

Bro. John,
Expert at Ad Hominems.

Finally, on January 14th, 1998, we posted an announcement that we had no intention of continuing a debate where the other side acts like John Mary acts, and when there has been no contact from the other side for months on end. (One can only imagine if we had kept John Mary waiting for that long!) The very same day we received a note from John Mary, announcing his posting of his next reply! We pointed him to the web page and indicated that the debate was over. His replies have been most interesting:


(Chuckle) Let's see who ends up looking bad here. True or false: We never
agreed on any time limit for debate entries? Of course, this makes your
attempt to cease the debate laughable. By what grounds do you think you
can substantiate your action? (You got tired of waiting?) Now my rebuttal
is in, and you cannot answer it - that is the bottom line. The readers only
see bottom lines. Everyone who reads my last rebuttal will be thinking one
thing, after witnessing your cowardly (but prudent) retreat: "The Catholic
Church looks good." Just think what an impression those final remarks of
mine will make on them, with your inability to "resolve" them. I thank you
profusely. You have finally done a great service to Holy Mother Church
(albeit inadvertently).

Make sure you visit our homepage. You'll regret you ever got involved in
this debate. Oh, and by the way: it is so ostentatiously contrived when you
attempt to look cool like me - Prots (nerds) should know their limitations
(chuckle, chuckle).

Brother John Mary

We pointed out that on the level of looking bad, we admit to being completely outclassed by John Mary. Never at a loss for words, John Mary replied:

Forward those letters to me to prove that you aren't simply lying again
(they don't exist). But not to let you think you have an alibi, in your
imagination, that will justify your backing out of the debate: I have a
letter from our bishop stating how very Catholic we are, and that Catholics
may donate money to our cause. Your approach reminds me of the atheist who
quotes Scripture in an argument with a Christian.

As usual, James, Ignoratio Elenchi. But the readers will be looking this
time for reasons why you chickened-out of the debate and all your pathetic
excuses will have no value.

In forensics, it matters not what status the opponent has with any
institution nor what are his personal beliefs when defending his assigned
position. The only thing that matters is the force of the argument. In our
high school forensics class, we would flip a coin to see who wanted to
defend an unpopular or disliked position. And if that side won, they looked
even better than the side that got to defend the position they found
favorable. So just for the sake of argument, what if I was excommunicated,
or not even a true member of the Roman Catholic Church? What would that
have to do with defending a Roman Catholic position? Technically, in a
debate, I could be an atheist and do the same. What have you now to say Mr.
Smart? Again, I end up looking good - you end up looking like the fake,
phony fraud that you are.

Your forensic superior,
Bro. John

The term "street thug" seems a bit too mellow for the likes of John Mary, self-described worshipper of Mary. Many Catholics have written to me after they had had a run-in with John Mary, shocked at the infantile behavior of this man. His modus operandi is now all too clear to see: he acts the hypocrite at first, then, once a discussion or debate has begun, his true colors show through. But, he knows it doesn't matter what he says or how he says it: if you stand up for truth, honesty, or simple civil behavior, he will attack you as a "chicken" and claim victory. In fact, it doesn't matter what you do or say---John Mary can't lose, at least in his own mind.

We've told him many times, but he won't listen. He doesn't realize the damage he has done to his own cause. He thinks he's promoting "mother Church." Instead, he's busily giving a black eye to the very institution he claims to love.

James White's opening statement: Professor White's Opening Statement
Brother John Mary's opening statement John Mary's Opening Statement
James White's first response: Professor White's First Rebuttal
Brother John Mary's first response:* John Mary's First Rebuttal
James White's second response: James White's Second Rebuttal
Brother John Mary's second response: John Mary's Second Rebuttal


(*Please note: This Rebuttal Violates the Debate Rules. It is 240 words beyond limits, and uses hyperlinks to provide citations that are materially relevant without counting those citations against the word limit). For further information regarding the background of the debate at this point, and the problems that have developed at this early stage, click here: Brother John Mary Disqualified.

Copyright 2005-2006 Alpha and Omega Ministries